What Hat Are You Wearing Today ?

[jeffgarf]

A rainy day by the Bay calls for the Akubra Stylemaster in Loden green.

 

[Good Lukes]

A rainy day by the Bay calls for the Akubra Stylemaster in Loden green.

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I love that "brim trim", Jeff. An Akubra hat is on my wish list and that Stylemaster is certainly a looker.

 

[jeffgarf]

I love that "brim trim", Jeff. An Akubra hat is on my wish list and that Stylemaster is certainly a looker.

What size are you? I may have something for you.

 

[Good Lukes]

What size are you? I may have something for you.

Hi Jeff, I am between a 57-58cm.

 

[Good Lukes]

Today, I am wearing my pre-bankruptcy Borsalino Velour from the early to mid-1970's.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Today, I am wearing my pre-bankruptcy Borsalino Velour from the early to mid-1970's.
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I've heard you talk about "pre-bankruptcy" Borsalinos a few times. Is that a phrase that others use? To me, the watershed for Borsalino happened earlier than 2017 - it happened maybe all the way back in 1987 when the family sold the business. There seems to be a noticeable decline in quality after the early or mid-80s.

Also, how did the Borsalino bankruptcy actually change the business? So far as I know, they are still making and selling hats of approximately the same quality as immediately before the bankruptcy - heck, maybe even better (if I believe Google, anyway). But in truth, at this time, 99.99% of all Borsalinos are pre-bankruptcy.

I guess I think of monikers like "pre" as a watershed moment in the quality of the hats or some major change in marketing, etc. A "pre-Stetson" Mallory is the first such moniker that comes to mind.

I know you like hat history, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Adam Majestic.

Not sure the date but certain clues make me think this is a 1940s hat.

 

[Good Lukes]

I've heard you talk about "pre-bankruptcy" Borsalinos a few times. Is that a phrase that others use? To me, the watershed for Borsalino happened earlier than 2017 - it happened maybe all the way back in 1987 when the family sold the business. There seems to be a noticeable decline in quality after the early or mid-80s.

Also, how did the Borsalino bankruptcy actually change the business? So far as I know, they are still making and selling hats of approximately the same quality as immediately before the bankruptcy - heck, maybe even better (if I believe Google, anyway). But in truth, at this time, 99.99% of all Borsalinos are pre-bankruptcy.

I guess I think of monikers like "pre" as a watershed moment in the quality of the hats or some major change in marketing, etc. A "pre-Stetson" Mallory is the first such moniker that comes to mind.

I know you like hat history, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Hi Nathan, great question. I only own this one Borsalino so I do not have any first-hand knowledge of how it compares to other Borsalinos. I have heard that the quality was lower at some point coinciding with the bankruptcy but perhaps @besdor of Bencraft Hatters or @steur could probably give better guidance on this subject.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Hi Nathan, great question. I only own this one Borsalino so I do not have any first-hand knowledge of how it compares to other Borsalinos. I have heard that the quality was lower at some point coinciding with the bankruptcy but perhaps @besdor of Bencraft Hatters or @steur could probably give better guidance on this subject.

Interesting you mention Bencraft. I googled "pre-bankruptcy Borsalino" and the very first hit was this video from Kevin (a good guy, I believe, I've been familiar with him for 10 years) where he talks about this hat as "pre-bankruptcy".

Maybe that designation means something particularly to a Hasidic community? To me, it rings a bit hollow as a sort of sales con (you gotta get this Borsa, it's pre-bankruptcy!) but maybe there is some justification in communities with really big markets for new Borsalinos.

 

[Good Lukes]

Interesting you mention Bencraft. I googled "pre-bankruptcy Borsalino" and the very first hit was this video from Kevin (a good guy, I believe, I've been familiar with him for 10 years) where he talks about this hat as "pre-bankruptcy".

Maybe that designation means something particularly to a Hasidic community? To me, it rings a bit hollow as a sort of sales con (you gotta get this Borsa, it's pre-bankruptcy!) but maybe there is some justification in communities with really big markets for new Borsalinos.

Indeed, Kevin is a friend of mine and he echoed that there was quality difference depending on dates of production. Again, I am in no position to say whether one Borsalino is better than another one so I will let others with more knowledge opine on this. That said, I also heard that at one point in history, Borsalino was having trouble sourcing enough quality felt to meet customer demand and they sourced felts from Tonak though I cannot confirm this 100%.

 

[jeffgarf]

Hi Nathan, great question. I only own this one Borsalino so I do not have any first-hand knowledge of how it compares to other Borsalinos. I have heard that the quality was lower at some point coinciding with the bankruptcy but perhaps @besdor of Bencraft Hatters or @steur could probably give better guidance on this subject.

Although there are many threads here for the searching on this issue and many of us have handled quite a few Borsalino hats through the years, I do think there are many opposing opinions on this matter that all have some grain of truth to them. For example, are there poorly made Borsalino hats prior to 2017? Absolutely! I own one from the 1990's that is Borsalino in name only, actually made in the USA by Bollman. Others, who are custom hat makers, have handled those and been able to spot the poor quality manufacturing easily. Post-2017, I have heard from others much closer to the manufacturer than I (a mere buyer) that many of the steps Borsalino has famously used to make their best quality hats have been trimmed back. This comes not just from those who stopped selling them, but even those who continued. They handle A LOT of hats, many more than we collectors do. Additionally, I have it on good authority, that certain current lines of Borsalino hats use felts sourced from other producers, as opposed to using Borsalino's own "secret sauce" felts. This makes Borsalino an expensive proposition when a custom with your choice of felts and finishes can cost the same.

Ultimately, "pre-2017", as a term, is a short-cut to discussing a better overall quality in the product. It really depends on the line and the individual hat. There may very well be some newer hats of a better manufacturer and felt quality than a pre-bankruptcy hat, but I, like most on the board here, would say the vintage stuff, like @steur or @Daniele Tanto are able to easily model, will be a better hat.

 

[jeffgarf]

Interesting you mention Bencraft. I googled "pre-bankruptcy Borsalino" and the very first hit was this video from Kevin (a good guy, I believe, I've been familiar with him for 10 years) where he talks about this hat as "pre-bankruptcy".

Maybe that designation means something particularly to a Hasidic community? To me, it rings a bit hollow as a sort of sales con (you gotta get this Borsa, it's pre-bankruptcy!) but maybe there is some justification in communities with really big markets for new Borsalinos.

I don't think JJ's catered to the Chassidic (and in truth, regular Orthodox Jewish - they actually wear the Borsalinos) market all that much. While he would certainly have encountered them (us), he was selling to tourists and celebrities. @besdor at Bencraft, also a friend of Kevin's, would have much more information, and he sells to both Jewish and hat affectionado communities as well, and has similar opinions. He, unlike Kevin (while at JJ), would sell Borsalinos no matter what.

 

[Good Lukes]

I don't think JJ's catered to the Chassidic (and in truth, regular Orthodox Jewish - they actually wear the Borsalinos) market all that much. While he would certainly have encountered them (us), he was selling to tourists and celebrities. @besdor at Bencraft, also a friend of Kevin's, would have much more information, and he sells to both Jewish and hat affectionado communities as well, and has similar opinions. He, unlike Kevin (while at JJ), would sell Borsalinos no matter what.

Thank you, Jeff. I have said this before but I will repeat it ... the collective body of knowledge here on TFL never ceases to amaze me.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

Although there are many threads here for the searching on this issue and many of us have handled quite a few Borsalino hats through the years, I do think there are many opposing opinions on this matter that all have some grain of truth to them. For example, are there poorly made Borsalino hats prior to 2017? Absolutely! I own one from the 1990's that is Borsalino in name only, actually made in the USA by Bollman. Others, who are custom hat makers, have handled those and been able to spot the poor quality manufacturing easily. Post-2017, I have heard from others much closer to the manufacturer than I (a mere buyer) that many of the steps Borsalino has famously used to make their best quality hats have been trimmed back. This comes not just from those who stopped selling them, but even those who continued. They handle A LOT of hats, many more than we collectors do. Additionally, I have it on good authority, that certain current lines of Borsalino hats use felts sourced from other producers, as opposed to using Borsalino's own "secret sauce" felts. This makes Borsalino an expensive proposition when a custom with your choice of felts and finishes can cost the same.

Ultimately, "pre-2017", as a term, is a short-cut to discussing a better overall quality in the product. It really depends on the line and the individual hat. There may very well be some newer hats of a better manufacturer and felt quality than a pre-bankruptcy hat, but I, like most on the board here, would say the vintage stuff, like @steur or @Daniele Tanto are able to easily model, will be a better hat.

I don't think JJ's catered to the Chassidic (and in truth, regular Orthodox Jewish - they actually wear the Borsalinos) market all that much. While he would certainly have encountered them (us), he was selling to tourists and celebrities. @besdor at Bencraft, also a friend of Kevin's, would have much more information, and he sells to both Jewish and hat affectionado communities as well, and has similar opinions. He, unlike Kevin (while at JJ), would sell Borsalinos no matter what.

Interesting discussion, thanks gentlemen.

I own three Borsas from the 60s and one modern one from after they went with the size tags that are stickers on the sweatband. It's not even close to the same galaxy so far as quality. If quality dropped off even further post-bankruptcy - well, that's really hard to imagine.

But it still doesn't make "pre-bankruptcy" mean much to me, since the hats haven't been that inspiring for thirty years anyway (but I must assume there are exceptions since many Loungers sport modern Borsas).

I have seen it said here that once the quality of the big U.S. hatmakers went downhill in the 60s, you still had at least 10 and maybe even 15 good years left of Borsalino.

Here's my modern Borsa. I did some sewing on it. I would wear it, but it's just not very comfortable.

 

[jeffgarf]

Interesting discussion, thanks gentlemen.

I own three Borsas from the 60s and one modern one from after they went with the size tags that are stickers on the sweatband. It's not even close to the same galaxy so far as quality. If quality dropped off even further post-bankruptcy - well, that's really hard to imagine.

But it still doesn't make "pre-bankruptcy" mean much to me, since the hats haven't been that inspiring for thirty years anyway (but I must assume there are exceptions since many Loungers sport modern Borsas).

I have seen it said here that once the quality of the big U.S. hatmakers went downhill in the 60s, you still had at least 10 and maybe even 15 good years left of Borsalino.

Here's my modern Borsa. I did some sewing on it. I would wear it, but it's just not very comfortable.

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It looks like that might be one using the specifications and quality used in the Jewish marketed hats. I too am not impressed with them, but there is a purpose in the thickness of the felts and the sturdy quality of the hat, similar to western weight, (vs. the buttery softness we actually love the brand for). For the community that wears these, like the Amish, they are worn every day, for long periods. The Amish use wool, but the need for a certain ruggedness is similar. They get mashed, sat upon and thrown around. If you get one at a decent price, it can be fashioned into a decent Western (like you did).

Truth is, even the Jewish community has moved back to better quality ones now that Borsalino is selling in their own stores here in the US in Jewish communities in NY and NJ and in Israel as well.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

It looks like that might be one using the specifications and quality used in the Jewish marketed hats. I too am not impressed with them, but there is a purpose in the thickness of the felts and the sturdy quality of the hat, similar to western weight, (vs. the buttery softness we actually love the brand for). For the community that wears these, like the Amish, they are worn every day, for long periods. The Amish use wool, but the need for a certain ruggedness is similar. They get mashed, sat upon and thrown around. If you get one at a decent price, it can be fashioned into a decent Western (like you did).

This makes a lot of sense and though I have handled some other modern Borsas they were already tainted from the outset by my experience with this one. They also had the "Borsalino" name printed on the bow and that turned me off

Maybe I should give the "pre-bankruptcy" Borsas another chance (now that designation does make sense: to me it now means the hats made between the time that the family sold the company in 1987 and it went bankrupt in 2017).

 

[Good Lukes]

Truth is, even the Jewish community has moved back to better quality ones now that Borsalino is selling in their own stores here in the US in Jewish communities in NY and NJ and in Israel as well.

Jeff, I am interested to learn more about the Bellisimo brand in NYC. Are you familiar with them? If so, I would welcome anything you can share.

 

[Ent]

The view from my gate and having localised land gales so sprint up a step hill to rescue the Akubra Bogart when is decided to go its own way.

 

[VoodooSan]

Thanks for sharing your hats folks. It is an entertaining hat parade.

Here are a couple hats from the last few days.

Gannon Wanderer (silvermist beaver felt).

Stetson Royal DeLuxe OR. (gray felt)

Cheers, Eric -

What a magnificent pair, Eric!

 

[jeffgarf]

Jeff, I am interested to learn more about the Bellisimo brand in NYC. Are you familiar with them? If so, I would welcome anything you can share.

I am. I'll DM you a video.