Retail pricing irritation

[greenc]

Does everyone remember the Covid days when inconspicuous spending once again reigned supreme?

Those who could afford luxury were spending money very quietly given the climate and stress of it all - I remember reading articles where shoppers revealed that they no longer wanted paper bags from luxury stores to transport their items because they attracted too much attention.

I was on The Real Real earlier this evening and their primary message is that luxury is a good investment and that major labels automatically equal high quality, both of which may have an edge of falsehood to them depending on the brand and item.

Again, I believe in aspirational spends but in order to justify it to myself I want to know as much as possible about the item, how and where it was produced, etc.

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

I’ve got enough to be irritated about — I don’t need designer brands added to the list

To me, luxury labels are symbols of wealth more than craftsmanship. People buy them to project success, not necessarily because they care about how or where the item was made. Personally, I couldn't care less about what they’re after.

By now, there are enough exposés and deep dives out there about how luxury pricing works. If someone’s still surprised by the markup, it’s kind of on them—they’re either paying for status or not doing their homework.

Those who care about the who/what/when/where/how will do their research and look for transparency. The rest? They’ll pay the brand tax and feel good about it. Fair enough, but it’s not for me.

If you’re walking away without spending on that stuff, you’re ahead. Count it as money saved and peace of mind earned.

 

[MadCat]

You’re paying for the name. People who can easily afford those prices don’t really care or have the time to look into what tannery the leather is from etc. As long as it’s original Tom Ford etc, that’s all that matters.

 

[Bawheid]

All WAY above my pay-grade sorry.

Actually it sounds nuts, no distress intended.

Dearest jacket I have bought new would be a $550 USD Schott 641HH cafe racer. 7/8 years back.

(apologies that was 11 years ago ! I just checked my old ebay invoices.)

That jacket is (and was) beautiful in construction and leather aroma.

You can get a bespoke leather jacket made for you in Perth WA for $800 USD.

Just sayin'.....

 

[Tomwiththeweather]

Classic example of Veblen goods. For normal goods, the number of units you can sell decreases as you increase price. But for certain types of product at the ultra-luxury level, the curve inverts, and charging more actually results in an increase in units sold.

If you're buying things to signal wealth, you want the most expensive version, regardless of the inherent qualities of the item itself.

Most on this forum are into jackets for their inherent qualities, not primarily to signal wealth, so this class of good looks ridiculous from our point of view.

 

[Carlos840]

And I think that's one of my main sticking points - the Tom Ford jacket was nice but at that level of spending the consumer is relying on trust with the brand to feel good about the purchase without having any specifics as to the actual value of the product.

You are going back to quality, my point is that it isn't about quality, it's about cost.
The point of the Tom Ford jacket is to be sold for 10 grand so that other people who care about that know that you have spend 10 grand. Not what it is made of, who made it, or the history of the design.

Like you can look at this jacket all day, it's not worth more than 500$:

SUEDE MOTOR JACKET

Shop SUEDE MOTOR JACKET. Free shipping is available.

www.tomfordfashion.com

The only think making it cost 10k is the Tom Ford name, that is it.

 

[Monitor]

It's not about buying a product, it's bout buying an image and a nametag.

It's this.

By buying Tom Ford, you are guaranteed three things:
• A designer piece - It is a piece designed by a person that is globally known for their profession or in other words, a professional had designed it
• An instantly recognizable status symbol - No need to clarify on this any further
• A quality product or a product that will not be of low quality - Quality, obviously, can mean so many things but a well put together leather jacket is what falls under this category, regardless of what kind of leather it was made of

How it compares to other makers is utterly irrelevant.

Let's look at it the other way: Whoever heard of Vanson, Thedi, Eastman, Aero, RMC, Rainbow Country and what possessed these virtually unknown makers to think they could be asking thousands of dollars for some generic biker and pilot jackets (which are so 201(insert year))?

Furthermore, why is it understandable when RMC marks up $180 worth of leather and zippers by $2500 and blasphemous Yves Saint Laurent does it?

What bugged me was that for approximately $3,300 USD I have no idea what the jacket is made of - outside knowing that it's leather

Would this information affect your decision (not) to buy the jacket?

Batch of superbly tanned lambskin doesn't cost any less than a batch of superbly tanned horsehide.

and I have no idea where it was crafted.

I have never once seen a known brand name item without a place of manufacture being clearly stated somewhere on it but if it's an early 2K jacket, it might have indeed been the case they have neglected to disclose this information which I personally find to be the most important aspect of anything I buy.

 

[TartuWolf]

You are going back to quality, my point is that it isn't about quality, it's about cost.
The point of the Tom Ford jacket is to be sold for 10 grand so that other people who care about that know that you have spend 10 grand. Not what it is made of, who made it, or the history of the design.

Like you can look at this jacket all day, it's not worth more than 500$:

http://[URL]https://www.tomfordfashion.com/en-us/suede-motor-jacket/LBS067-LMS023S25.html

[/URL]

The only think making it cost 10k is the Tom Ford name, that is it.

Funnily enough if I'd see someone in town wearing the jacket I'd think "wow, that looks like ****, but I guess it's just a 100$ jacket like any other, nothing out of the ordinary". I'm such a peasant for not being able to recognize a 10,000$ Tom Ford jacket haha.

 

[Carlos840]

I have never once seen a known brand name item without a place of manufacture being clearly stated somewhere on it but if it's an early 2K jacket, it might have indeed been the case they have neglected to disclose this information which I personally find to be the most important aspect of anything I buy.

This is as much an answer to you as it is to @greenc , but i don't think the "where" is as important as the "how".

Yes, Tom Ford makes a big deal of the "made in Italy" label, lets not forget that italy is known for exploiting this kind of workers:

Client Challenge

The dark side of “Made in Italy” from Richemont

In Florence, 13 Pakistani workers employed by a supplier to Richemont were sacked after defending their rights. Public Eye has collected their testimonies, which describe abusive working con...

www.publiceye.ch

Italian Court Reprimands Loro Piana Over Worker Abuse Allegations

Loro Piana is the fifth luxury brand implicated in Italy's crackdown on unethical subcontracting, revealing systemic issues in the industry's fragmented supply chain.

www.forbes.com

"Investigators found workers were forced to work up to 90 hours a week, seven days a week and made less than $5 per hour. They also slept in the factory in illegally built rooms. Further investigation found ten workers were employed illegally, seven of whom were undocumented immigrants from China."

"The owner of the subcontractor said the company has been producing between 6,000 and 7,000 men’s jackets per year at prices between $137 to $149 (€118 and €128) depending upon the number ordered.

Loro Piana cashmere jackets sell for more than $4,000, though the company stated: “The reported cost figures are not representative of the amounts paid by Loro Piana to its supplier nor do they consider the full value of all the elements, including, among others, raw materials and fabrics.”


In these circumstences is there a real difference between it being "made in Italy" as opposed to made in china or Pakistan?

To me that's the biggest difference between buying Vanson, Thedi, Eastman, Aero, RMC, Rainbow Country or buying designer. With these brands i am paying for quality leather and workers that aren't "exploited".
With designer you are paying for a name tag and funelling money into a giant corporation that doesn't care about anyone or anything other than making money at any cost.


Edit: i have been doing some digging since posting these links, it appears Tom ford is owned by Zegna.
During the 2000s Armani and Zegna had a joint venture and Zegna was managing factories for Armani.
Armani is a name that comes up all the time in these articles about worker exploitation.
So Zegna had no problems setting /running exploitative factories for Armani in the past, why would they treat the Tom Ford brand any differently?

 

[Tom71]

I think there are two diffrent effects going on:

1. The "obvious luxury" effect:

You have all described that; "I buy, so I am". A Rolex is a great watch, but that´s not why it´s bought; a 911 is a superb car, but...

2. The "Eff-U-money" effect:

This prices all "wanna be´s" straight out of the market. Items that are so expensive, they are just not within reach of normal income groups, but are still negligable for the ultra-rich.
I don´t care that I will never be able to afford a Bugatti Chiron, a super yacht or a Nautilus with Tiffany dial. I just don´t care, but if others enjoy these - good for them.

What bothers me though is that this effect increasingly extents to broader lifestyle desicions:

- gated communities where the rent for an apartment is EUR 20.000/month.

- villages at the Amalfi coast that basically are only "open" between 11am and 3pm (when the US cruise ships are puking their wealthy passengers on the coast) and charge EUR 50 for one (1!) glass of Aperol Sprizz).

- or just the generic ballcap that suddenly is EUR 260,-

The later effect has the potential to change society as a whole, because it suddenly excludes a large part of the population from totally normal activities like sitting down with your family and enjpoying a restaurant dinner. You can see the backlash of locals versus "outside money" in places like Mallorca or Barcelona, but reality is, if there is a cash-cow, people will milk it and think about the longterm effects some generations later.

 

[GHT]

2. The "Eff-U-money" effect:

This prices all "wanna be´s" straight out of the market. Items that are so expensive, they are just not within reach of normal income groups, but are still negligable for the ultra-rich.
I don´t care that I will never be able to afford a Bugatti Chiron, a super yacht or a Nautilus with Tiffany dial. I just don´t care, but if others enjoy these - good for them.

What bothers me though is that this effect increasingly extents to broader lifestyle desicions:

How right you are. On the southern England coast, in the county of Dorset, is a spit of land known as Sandbanks. It's surrounded by the sea, apart from a small strip that connects the spit to the mainland.

A recent new build apartment in Sandbanks sold for £2.16 million, equating to £1,776 per square foot. To put that into perspective, Manhattan is known as Manhattan Island, the price per square foot there is around $1,500. The £1,776 that the Sandbanks apartment cost translates into US dollars as $2,396 and the probability is that the purchaser will only use the apartment for the occasional weekend or week long sunshine break.

 

[greenc]

It's this.

By buying Tom Ford, you are guaranteed three things:
• A designer piece - It is a piece designed by a person that is globally known for their profession or in other words, a professional had designed it
• An instantly recognizable status symbol - No need to clarify on this any further
• A quality product or a product that will not be of low quality - Quality, obviously, can mean so many things but a well put together leather jacket is what falls under this category, regardless of what kind of leather it was made of

How it compares to other makers is utterly irrelevant.

Let's look at it the other way: Whoever heard of Vanson, Thedi, Eastman, Aero, RMC, Rainbow Country and what possessed these virtually unknown makers to think they could be asking thousands of dollars for some generic biker and pilot jackets (which are so 201(insert year))?

Furthermore, why is it understandable when RMC marks up $180 worth of leather and zippers by $2500 and blasphemous Yves Saint Laurent does it?

Would this information affect your decision (not) to buy the jacket?

Batch of superbly tanned lambskin doesn't cost any less than a batch of superbly tanned horsehide.


I have never once seen a known brand name item without a place of manufacture being clearly stated somewhere on it but if it's an early 2K jacket, it might have indeed been the case they have neglected to disclose this information which I personally find to be the most important aspect of anything I buy.

@Monitor you spoke to one of the exact points I've been contemplating - the expectation that a luxury label will employ the best designers and source the most professional craftsmen and hence provide a product of higher quality than lower-tiered manufacturers.

It's the same when you look at vintage furniture.

One of the reasons names like Eames, Scarpa, Baughman, Wegner, Pearsall, etc command so much money on today's market is because there's the expectation that because those designers were so prolific and important in their respective days they could command the best manufacturing processes and hence superior material quality at the time.

And you're right about the outrage with YSL charging $9k for a Double Riders but by and large RMC gets a pass for a $3,000 J-24. I think the difference is that non-luxury labels and manufacturers will be capped at how much of a markup they can enjoy.

If Rainbow Country charged $11k for a Centinella we would all be rolling our eyes.

And that brings up an interesting thought - if YSL or Dior or Ford or some other luxury label "only" charged $2,500 for their cowhide motorcycle jacket would their diehard clientele turn their nose up at its apparent lack of quality given the low-to-them price point?

At a certain level of purchasing price is what signifies quality, and that's where all of this started for me - the Tom Ford jacket was indeed nice but in no way was it worth $4,500 (pre-owned) in materials and craftsmanship costs - and that's particularly true at the $11,100 retail cost.

Is a custom Thedi worth $1,700?

Maybe not entirely but at least we know the materials and the person who designed and sewed it - the markup beyond the materials cost we can more easily attribute to the cost associated with having a master craftsman work on your garment, whereas with a large corporate luxury label the craftsmen are unknown to us.

Again, we have to use price at that point to imagine that the label is sourcing the best craftsmen and materials and it's all very romantic, which we know that it isn't.

 

[greenc]

This is as much an answer to you as it is to @greenc , but i don't think the "where" is as important as the "how".

Yes, Tom Ford makes a big deal of the "made in Italy" label, lets not forget that italy is known for exploiting this kind of workers:

http://[URL]https://www.lemonde.fr/...t-chinese-factories-in-italy_6687795_143.html

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.publiceye.c...the-dark-side-of-made-in-italy-from-richemont

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.forbes.com/...g-list-of-luxury-brands-tied-to-worker-abuse/

[/URL]

"Investigators found workers were forced to work up to 90 hours a week, seven days a week and made less than $5 per hour. They also slept in the factory in illegally built rooms. Further investigation found ten workers were employed illegally, seven of whom were undocumented immigrants from China."

"The owner of the subcontractor said the company has been producing between 6,000 and 7,000 men’s jackets per year at prices between $137 to $149 (€118 and €128) depending upon the number ordered.

Loro Piana cashmere jackets sell for more than $4,000, though the company stated: “The reported cost figures are not representative of the amounts paid by Loro Piana to its supplier nor do they consider the full value of all the elements, including, among others, raw materials and fabrics.”


In these circumstences is there a real difference between it being "made in Italy" as opposed to made in china or Pakistan?

To me that's the biggest difference between buying Vanson, Thedi, Eastman, Aero, RMC, Rainbow Country or buying designer. With these brands i am paying for quality leather and workers that aren't "exploited".
With designer you are paying for a name tag and funelling money into a giant corporation that doesn't care about anyone or anything other than making money at any cost.


Edit: i have been doing some digging since posting these links, it appears Tom ford is owned by Zegna.
During the 2000s Armani and Zegna had a joint venture and Zegna was managing factories for Armani.
Armani is a name that comes up all the time in these articles about worker exploitation.
So Zegna had no problems setting /running exploitative factories for Armani in the past, why would they treat the Tom Ford brand any differently?

@Carlos840 I appreciate the links and the digging - the Made in Italy label is an interesting animal.

I believe I read that they were trying to tighten the laws around that as so many luxury labels had been exploiting it. The article mentioned major houses having their purses and leather bags crafted in China and Pakistan and sent back to Italy where one small item - the handles - would be attached but that was enough to say it was Made In Italy.

Again, I believe Hermes really is the most vertically-integrated of the lot and I respect their use and support of their craftsmen. Their prices can be eyebrow raising depending on the piece but if they're employing that many people and paying everyone fairly then it's more understandable.

 

[AHP91]

@Carlos840 I appreciate the links and the digging - the Made in Italy label is an interesting animal.

I believe I read that they were trying to tighten the laws around that as so many luxury labels had been exploiting it. The article mentioned major houses having their purses and leather bags crafted in China and Pakistan and sent back to Italy where one small item - the handles - would be attached but that was enough to say it was Made In Italy.

Again, I believe Hermes really is the most vertically-integrated of the lot and I respect their use and support of their craftsmen. Their prices can be eyebrow raising depending on the piece but if they're employing that many people and paying everyone fairly then it's more understandable.

I’ve noticed this is like the fifth time you’ve posted a nearly identical question about jacket comparisons. It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind but are looking for reassurance. There’s nothing wrong with wanting something — but maybe it’s worth considering why you’re revisiting the same debate. A purchase can be satisfying, but it won’t fix what’s driving the constant need to justify it. You don’t need to run an equation to make it make sense — if you want it, own the want. And you are not what you own

 

[greenc]

I’ve noticed this is like the fifth time you’ve posted a nearly identical question about jacket comparisons. It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind but are looking for reassurance. There’s nothing wrong with wanting something — but maybe it’s worth considering why you’re revisiting the same debate. A purchase can be satisfying, but it won’t fix what’s driving the constant need to justify it. You don’t need to run an equation to make it make sense — if you want it, own the want. And you are not what you own

Thanks @AHP91 for the response, I appreciate it - I have in fact posed this same type of question before, but this time it was motivated by the markup involved and the perception of quality that price engenders within a certain segment of buyers.

I would much rather own a jacket from a boutique brand - Vanson, RMC, Thedi, etc - than from a major label for the precise reason that we've all been discussing.

There's an opaqueness at the major labels that I can dismiss in most cases without a problem - I'm not so fussed about the origin of a $75 short-sleeved cotton knit Polo shirt - but when it comes to the higher priced pieces I'm more interested in where things are made and by whom.

In a way I want the label to justify to me why their jacket is $9,000, which I know is irrational and not something the brand(s) will ever do but bear with me - in my way of thinking the conversation comes down to why a person would spend money like that when they could have a superior quality product of known origin for a healthy amount less.

And that's been decided: major label = status, which I understand - it's just that the rational part of my brain gets hung up on things like that and I wrote to see what other people's thoughts were about it.

 

[AHP91]

RMC is is no way a “boutique brand”. The same way you justify your expensive(to you) purchase is the same way someone with more money will justify that purchase.

 

[greenc]

You're right @AHP91 about justification, however, RMC is much more a niche/boutique brand than the larger more established global fashion labels, and my purchase there or with any of the other leather jacket manufacturers mentioned previously - Rainbow County, Vanson, Schott, etc - comes with a much more clarified understanding of the materials and craftsmanship.

 

[Carlos840]

This thread is like screaming into an empty hallway...

 

[greenc]

This thread is like screaming into an empty hallway...

@Carlos840 I agree but it didn't start out that way - I think it has now run its course.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

@Carlos840 I agree but it didn't start out that way - I think it has now run its course.

No no no…you’re not done here yet!
You want that jacket, you need that jacket, you have to have that jacket.
Grab your fiancé, have her wear something ***y and go back to that store.
While she’s being flirty with the salesman make him a lowball offer, say $1500, meet him in the middle at $2500.
You’ll have that jacket!
Then come back and post it in all it’s glory. We wanna see that jacket. Lord yes we wanna see it.
This thread has been a lifetime in a day at the Lounge.
Please don’t leave us hanging.
Finish this thread right for us.
B