Aero Leather Clothing trial update

[pawineguy]

As I Would Go Out Tonight has noted, some of the regular faces - like me - have been conspicuous in our absence on this topic, and I'll go on the record here to say that I come here to relax (alternatively I could be reading up on the news/geo-politics/UK and Ontario politics and be depressed instead after all) and make a general point of only chiming in if I have a) anything positive or b) constructive to say or contribute.

So that said, as pointed out earlier, I would agree that there does seem to me to be a degree of partisanship over the whole Aero versus AL topic and I find the glee that has sometimes been expressed to be distasteful. It's as though some people have an actual vested interest in these companies, when as customers only, they don't.
In this life, I take people as I find them - note, as I find them - and Will was nothing but great with me and was part of the reason that my otherwise then-total loyalty with ELC was broken and I went with Aero for my ANJ-3 and C-3 and immensely happy I was/am - and he/they did some stellar repair and alteration work for me.
So I've nothing but good to say about him as he was a part of that and that was my experience.

Later the company divided and all the acrimony came out here and I simply hated it as I found it very toxic and a complete turn-off. It's not why I come here. Some people seemed more well-informed than others and it always left me bemused with the innuendo and how they'd seemingly know more than everyone else - and yet, I never cared for any of it.
All I know is (as it's been discussed here), as Garzo stated, Will left Aero and a whole raft of employees left en masse with him. That's an obvious act of loyalty to him - to risk your livelihood (that puts food on the table, pays the mortgage and bills, car payments etc) and to take an unknown chance elsewhere - so one could wonder what that was all about …?

BUT - as then as now, I consider it none of my business. What went on between Will and his former bosses and all the associated staff was a STRICTLY INTERNAL MATTER for them as it doesn't affect me/us. Where I come from, that's called minding somebody else's business. (So no thank you, Sloan. I don't care what was said in court and what the in's and out's were. Thanks for asking though).

I have no dog in any of this.
I dealt with Will when he was there at then-Aero and can say that dealing with then-Aero was a pleasure and was a prime example of how to win a customer away from the competition - and when he was at AL they did some stellar repair and alteration work for me and I'd gladly order from AL in future too.
The storse-thing didn't affect me and I don't know how I'd feel about it as I'd need to see and feel and try on one of those jackets to make up my own mind about it - I followed the thread quietly and know that many people were happy regardless. Sure, they didn't get what they thought they'd ordered and that's a breach-of-trust and it's a bad state of affairs, but would I care if it was my jacket? I simply don't know (I may have liked it regardless too) so cannot comment (which is why I haven't).
I don't know anything about eBay jackets other than what I've read here. What his motivations could have been be for stashing stuff in his house (that was very wrong of him and dumb and utterly indefensible), one would have to ask him - but still, no matter what he said, it wouldn't matter to me either way. That'd be his concern - and they aren't my own and it wouldn't affect my future custom from either Aero or AL.
What matters to me is that I get a great jacket at a reasonable price and good service.

What also matters to me is that I really like to see small specialty businesses both in business and thriving - especially in places like Scotland (where the UK economy is still navigating some very troubled waters, no matter what the politicians may be saying to the contrary in the final home straight to the election); as I stated on a thread elsewhere very recently, I don't like to buy anything from China if it all possible and am happy to pay more for quality items made in the USA, Canada or UK, and it matters that small niche companies like Aero, ELC, AL, Aces High etc all do well and we support them. We have just seen the demise of RMNZ and I'd hate to think that the fallout from this could hurt AL too as that hurts everyone. It hurts their employees and it hurts us as customers.

So I only regard this story with sadness - I think it's sad for Will and his reputation, his family, his employees, his customers, Aero (the Calder family) and all the acrimony that went before - I see no cause for glee nor gloating around here - I think it's sad for everyone that anything like this has happened to what we're all so passionate about and I hope everyone can just move on and we can once again happily focus on the jackets - and not what went on behind closed doors where they were made.

I certainly understand your position, although I do find some of your conclusions hard to fathom. If you are so concerned about small Scottish businesses, where's the outrage over stealing 200K from a small Scottish business, almost sinking that business because you defrauded their customers, and then leading a mass exodus of employees to help start a direct competitor?

If by partisanship you mean taking the side of the victim, then yes, I'm a partisan. And if by partisan, you mean that I'm interested in knowing if AL was able to get up and running (and competing) by using proprietary information that also came from Aero, I'm guilty again.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I think what most are interested in is a 'just' outcome for those who were wronged during this fiasco. Perhaps you or I weren't directly affected and therefore more easily can exhibit an 'oh well' attitude ..but many others went through hassle and heartache because of one adult (perhaps more) who made the decisions to have a similar 'so what' behavior when conducting business even concerning the faithful. This can be difficult for some to really understand and come to grips with..thus revealing specific facts of the trial help others determine if this was mainly ******** attempts at greed..power,etc with complete disregard for the company and customer..or if other factors were also involved.
I would suggest that if you could care less about what factors may have been involved...simply skim over future posts about this subject...or don't read them at all. This discussion is not only about you or me...but more the fact that many others were and still are affected by the magnitude and dishonesty of this serious betrayal.
HD

 

[Stand By]

I was originally referring to the past sniping - back when there was yet to be any perceived victim. It was unpleasant then - and continues today in the same vein but now is suddenly justified. I just find it odd to see so many people who haven't been personally wronged, acting as though they have been.
As for the mass exodus of staff and why it happened, I can't speak to it as I wasn't there to know - but I'm not outraged as losing staff can happen in any business.
And taking property that isn't yours to take is indefensible and wrong. I said so. It's theft and reading about it in the news article that Sloan posted is all there is that one needs to know about it. The evidence was all there. He's done.
And about proprietary information, I can't speak to that. I have no idea what it takes to make these jackets but just assume that they're all similar skills, variations on a theme. I have no idea. It's not my field of expertise.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Perhaps there are those that would reply that there seemed to be much more thievery than just the van full of Aero goods that were confiscated....

 

[breezer]

Many of us are passionate about Aero and what they have been doing for 30+ years. So why can't we show that passion while discussing something that might have led to their demise? Especially as that something led to a 3 week criminal trial, a conviction and very serious legal consequences for the someone involved.

 

[Stand By]

I think what most are interested in is a 'just' outcome for those who were wronged during this fiasco. Perhaps you or I weren't directly affected and therefore more easily can exhibit an 'oh well' attitude ..but many others went through hassle and heartache because of one adult (perhaps more) who made the decisions to have a similar 'so what' behavior when conducting business even concerning the faithful. This can be difficult for some to really understand and come to grips with..thus revealing specific facts of the trial help others determine if this was mainly ******** attempts at greed..power,etc with complete disregard for the company and customer..or if other factors were also involved.
I would suggest that if you could care less about what factors may have been involved...simply skim over future posts about this subject...or don't read them at all. This discussion is not only about you or me...but more the fact that many others were and still are affected by the magnitude and dishonesty of this serious betrayal.
HD

I started my apprenticeship a long time ago working for quite a big name in my field of profession. By all accounts and by so many people, he was a complete tyrant - him and his wife and even his daughter too (she once knocked an old lady over with her car - she got out and berated the old lady as she lay in the street! So the fruit didn't fall far from the tree). But he was the boss and he hired me - and I know he wronged a great many people and he had a terrible reputation. People would say to me "You work for him?! Jesus. What's a nice kid like you doing working under him?!? What's that like?!"
But you know what, he was always alright by me. He was always civil and professional and quite kind. Should I hold him in disdain because of how he was universally with others - but never me? So no, I didn't then and I don't today.
And as a result, way back then, I learned to take people as I find them.

 

[breezer]

I started my apprenticeship a long time ago working for quite a big name in my field of profession. By all accounts and by so many people, he was a complete tyrant - him and his wife and even his daughter too (she once knocked an old lady over with her car - she got out and berated the old lady as she lay in the street!). But he was the boss and he hired me - and I know he wronged a great many people and he had a terrible reputation. People would say to me "You work for him?! Jesus. What's a nice kid like you doing working under him?!?"
But you know what, he was always alright by me. He was always civil and professional and quite kind. Should I hold him in disdain because of how he was universally with others - but never me? So no, I don't.
And as a result, way back then, I learned to take people as I find them.

So what you are saying is that if a person is a bully, a thief or worse, then they are ok - so long as it doesn't affect you?
Nice.

 

[Stand By]

Many of us are passionate about Aero and what they have been doing for 30+ years. So why can't we show that passion while discussing something that might have led to their demise? Especially as that something led to a 3 week criminal trial, a conviction and very serious legal consequences for the someone involved.

Of course, you're passionate - as are we all and I fully take your point.

 

[Stand By]

I started my apprenticeship a long time ago working for quite a big name in my field of profession. By all accounts and by so many people, he was a complete tyrant - him and his wife and even his daughter too (she once knocked an old lady over with her car - she got out and berated the old lady as she lay in the street!). But he was the boss and he hired me - and I know he wronged a great many people and he had a terrible reputation. People would say to me "You work for him?! Jesus. What's a nice kid like you doing working under him?!?"
But you know what, he was always alright by me. He was always civil and professional and quite kind. Should I hold him in disdain because of how he was universally with others - but never me? So no, I don't.
And as a result, way back then, I learned to take people as I find them.

So what you are saying is that if a person is a bully, a thief or worse, then they are ok - so long as it doesn't affect you?
Nice.

No, what I would say was that I acknowledged that yes, I worked for that guy and he had that reputation, but I would always add that he was fine with me.
I wouldn't lie or even infer that he was anything other than what he was with me. To do so would be dishonest.

And NO - it's NOT OKAY to take what isn't yours. I said it was wrong and he fully deserves a guilty charge on that. I said that too.

 

[I would go out tonight]

As I Would Go Out Tonight has noted, some of the regular faces - like me - have been conspicuous in our absence on this topic.

It was not you I was thinking of. There is much you say that I agree with. I nearly sold my jackets when the peter pan collar exchanges were going on. I thought that there was some breakdown in relationships if the staff left Aero to go to AL.
With this conviction, where does that leave the staff at AL? Although I am guilty of making light earlier in the thread, Will's actions have serious consequences for many people. You feel the glee is unseemly, but do you think Will would be saddened if he had sunk Aero and was left in the clear to sell the products that Ken had mentored him in? Extrapolate this situation to your own reference to your apprenticeship.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

No, what I would say was that I acknowledged that yes, I worked for that guy and he had that reputation, but I would always add that he was fine with me.
I wouldn't lie or even infer that he was anything other than what he was with me. To do so would be dishonest.

And NO - it's NOT OKAY to take what isn't yours. I said it was wrong and he deserves a guilty charge on that.

You mean like someone even insisting in a legal court that he did nothing wrong..but it is finally proven that he did..?? Sounds familiar.
...and denying that he misrepresented anything else either.
I think your argument of dismissal might have been more buyable during some of the last couple of years...but not so much now.

 

[Stand By]

It was not you I was thinking of. There is much you say that I agree with. I nearly sold my jackets when the peter pan collar exchanges were going on. I thought that there was some breakdown in relationships if the staff left Aero to go to AL.
With this conviction, where does that leave the staff at AL? Although I am guilty of making light earlier in the thread, Will's actions have serious consequences for many people. You feel the glee is unseemly, but do you think Will would be saddened if he had sunk Aero and was left in the clear to sell the products that Ken had mentored him in? Extrapolate this situation to your own reference to your apprenticeship.

I can't honestly say how Will would feel - I've never spoken to him - he just oversaw the work that was done for me, he cut some leather for one of my jackets and all was done well.
As for how it'd actually be if he'd sunk Aero - I would sincerely hope that wouldn't happen of course. This is a niche interest and it needs as much diversity as it can get (it still won't be much at that) and as a rule, competition is good for business. For instance, I'm on record here as saying that I'm not a fan of the ELC "Time-Worn" leathers - but I get why ELC makes them that way - they set the ELC A2s and whatever else apart from the competition. But not liking them is why any next A2 I have would probably be an Aero - I wouldn't have another ELC Irvin after mine either, so would look very closely at Aero.
And of course, we just lost RMNZ and that's a loss. I would hope there's enough business out there for some healthy competition.
As for the civilian designs (AL V Aero), I have absolutely no interest in them so I'm not familiar with them. I just know the military designs - and they're standard designs.

As for my apprenticeship, I can say that my former boss left the business and I suddenly had new managers. My former boss, having been bought out fair and square and he had legally agreed not to set up another similar business in the same city - which he then did. I thought that was very unsporting of him (but not at all surprising, given his reputation, of course), but it merely spurred us all on to do better and prove him wrong that the business would fold without his name. And we made a success of it and it still runs to this day. Like most things in business, the market will decide.

 

[Stand By]

You mean like someone even insisting in a legal court that he did nothing wrong..but it is finally proven that he did..?? Sounds familiar.
...and denying that he misrepresented anything else either.
I think your argument of dismissal might have been more buyable during some of the last couple of years...but not so much now.

Dismissal? Where is my argument for dismissal???

I acknowledged that the stolen goods were found in his house - he was clearly guilty of that and I stated that it was indefensible. I'm being as clear as I can be here. My type literally is in black and white.

 

[ProteinNerd]

*scraps National Inquirer-style piece* Dang.

Its not a real UK newspaper worthy article unless you have a ******* model wearing only a leather jacket as the attitude picture.....

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Dismissal? Where is my argument for dismissal???

I acknowledged that the stolen goods were found in his house - he was clearly guilty of that and I stated that it was indefensible. I'm being as clear as I can be here. My type literally is in black and white.

Why it stands out like sore thumb. You are dismissing any other deceptive behavior except for the house full of stolen merchandise. little else matters to you..except that you are bewildered that others seem to want to see more evidence of what was involved in this tangled mess of IH..eBay...Aero and possibly AL and others. Your reasoning continuously comes across as mostly an 'oh well' position as to why anyone would want to know more about 'who, why,and how many entities' were intentionally mislead. The 'so what' consistent argument seems to overpower any concept, on your part, that those who disagree are making any reasonable sense whatsoever.
HD

 

[winterland1]

Okay I am now up to date on things. Whoa.

 

[wdw]

I'm curious as to whether or not Aero can sue to recover any of the money they've undoubtedly lost because of all this.

And are we to assume that this was all carried out by the ex-MD alone over umpteen years without anyone else on the staff being involved at all? Seems unlikely.

And given that apparently 85% of the old staff chose to leave with the ex-MD, I'm also interested to know why the others didn't. Did they suspect something? I hope their loyalty is rewarded in some way, as they certainly chose the winning horse.

I'm guessing we the public will never know the full story here, but I also think it's probably even more damning than we now know.

Actually, a question for the legal eagles: could the culprit now name names in return for a reduced sentence? I'm guessing the odd person might be feeling relieved that their collars weren't felt too.

 

[Otter]

I belive that is a Plea in Mitigation, it is part of your defence aka "Some Big Boy Did It, Then Ran Away". If he had named names and hadn't gone through the whole expensive trial business then a reduced sentence might have been in order. Not sure what the maximum is that a Sherrif can throw at you is now.

 

[tropicalbob]

I'm curious as to whether or not Aero can sue to recover any of the money they've undoubtedly lost because of all this.

And are we to assume that this was all carried out by the ex-MD alone over umpteen years without anyone else on the staff being involved at all? Seems unlikely.

And given that apparently 85% of the old staff chose to leave with the ex-MD, I'm also interested to know why the others didn't. Did they suspect something? I hope their loyalty is rewarded in some way, as they certainly chose the winning horse.

I'm guessing we the public will never know the full story here, but I also think it's probably even more damning than we now know.

Actually, a question for the legal eagles: could the culprit now name names in return for a reduced sentence? I'm guessing the odd person might be feeling relieved that their collars weren't felt too.

I'm just glad my collar wasn't "storse." I've been wondering the same thing for some time about those that left Aero. I suppose we'll all find out much more after Craig's report.

 

[thor]

Why it stands out like sore thumb. You are dismissing any other deceptive behavior except for the house full of stolen merchandise. little else matters to you..except that you are bewildered that others seem to want to see more evidence of what was involved in this tangled mess of IH..eBay...Aero and possibly AL and others. Your reasoning continuously comes across as mostly an 'oh well' position as to why anyone would want to know more about 'who, why,and how many entities' were intentionally mislead. The 'so what' consistent argument seems to overpower any concept, on your part, that those who disagree are making any reasonable sense whatsoever.
HD

This reminds me of the reactions by some when the Mark Moye news started to break. Some had very good dealings with Moye and did not want to believe what others were saying. They all wanted to believe that there had to be some mitigating circumstances that might explain away the shady goings-on. They remember the good in a person that they had dealt with in the past and were baffled by later factual revelations exposing that person as someone completely different then the one they thought they knew..