What makes a proper haberdashery?

[CharlestonBows]

Reserving my own comments for later, I was wondering what you fine folks require of an establishment to make it a true gentleman's haberdashery? This should be fun.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

surly staff wearing flat caps and linen dusters.

bk

 

[Tomasso]

They should be able to outfit one from head to toe, underwear to outerwear, for both city and country with accessories to boot. Custom/MTM/MTO options available.

 

[luvthatlulu]

There are several criteria that come to my mind, but I think the one that heads my list would be the expertise to know and the willingness to actually say that something isn't right for me, rather than simply selling something to increase the commission.

 

[Undertow]

On the same par as BK and Luv, I think quality should come far ahead of quantity. I'd like a place full of surly men, quick wits, cigar smoking; somewhere out of the way, in the city, maybe downstairs of a popular market.

No need for windows as there should be nice lamps. Good displays, well put together and color coordinated (not that this would be a problem at most gentleman's stores).

And most important is knowledge. If an idiot walks in and wants to know about every single little thing, that idiot should get just as thorough information as if an expert walked in trying to quiz the employees. Staff should not only know the difference between materials but should also be well versed between the brands they carry, the various nuances and such.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

They should be able to outfit one from head to toe, underwear to outerwear, for both city and country with accessories to boot. Custom/MTM/MTO options available.

See, here's why i didn't make a serious response (well, i'm serious about the dusters and flat caps . . . surliness optional).

I should have thought that the haberdasher would supply the peripherals: links and studs, ties, perhaps grooming and clothing maintenance goods. I never thought haberdashers supplied the "constructed" clothing - suits 'n' outerwear '' suchlike. As i understood it, the very essence of the haberdasher was in provision of the peripherals (i.e. they never provided the curtains, but provided the sashes, pull ropes, ribbon ties etc. that were necessary for proper curtain function). Obviously here we're talking about "gentlemen's" haberdashery so its about the peripherals of menswear. But haberdashery is a rather general term.



So - long way to come to an answer, no? - I'd say the good gent's haberdasher provides all the peripherals. The answer "sorry, we're out of combs" should never even enter the haberdasher's mind.

bk

 

[Tomasso]

I'd say the good gent's haberdasher provides all the peripherals.

I think we've one of those U.K.-U.S. disconnects here. American haberdashers like Oviatt's and Capper & Capper offered the whole shootin' match. [huh]

BTW, I chose not to include the human element in my criteria because over the years I've seen even the most experience and knowledgeable sales associates at the finest shops mislead customers for personal gain; not to mention the overwhelming number of SA's who are outright dolts. Yes, service is nice but I much prefer an establishment have the goods.

 

[CharlestonBows]

Let us use the more contemporary and broad meaning of "haberdasher", meaning clothier, a merchant who sells men's clothing, a proper mens store. Tailored goods and accessories thereto.

 

[luvthatlulu]

Yes, service is nice but I much prefer an establishment have the goods.

Absolutely. I want the shop to have the goods, too. Who wouldn't? But I also want a good "navigator" to lead me thru the options and help me avoid the flak. I trust my own judgement most of the time; however, occasionally I get hung up by the selection before me and need someone else to cast an educated and honest deciding ballot.

 

[luvthatlulu]

I think a very competent tailor should be available on premises, too. To me, there's nothing worse than a fine garment that has been poorly tailored or a correctly fitted garment that was poorly done. I value a tailor who does it right and leaves no "footprint" where he (or she) has been.

-- Not the Lulu

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

The smell has to be right, too. I can't describe it, but those who know know what I mean.

 

[jgilbert]

...a proper haberdasher sells all men's furnishings except suits and shoes. Those are their own specialties.

I can understand shoes but why suits?

Thanks

 

[CharlestonBows]

According to the older meaning of the term, especially in the UK, a haberdasher, in a strict sense, only carried furnishings, such as ribbons, buttons, etc.

To get a suit, you went to a tailors shop, such as A&S or Poole, etc. To get shoes, you go to John Lobb, etc. Those brands are the tops, but you get the idea.

The industry has changed since then, and so has the terminology. Most proper mens shops that carry tailored goods also carry the furnishing as well.

 

[jgilbert]

Thanks Charleston that does make sense.

 

[Mid-fogey]

Bows is probably right...

According to the older meaning of the term, especially in the UK, a haberdasher, in a strict sense, only carried furnishings, such as ribbons, buttons, etc.

To get a suit, you went to a tailors shop, such as A&S or Poole, etc. To get shoes, you go to John Lobb, etc. Those brands are the tops, but you get the idea.

The industry has changed since then, and so has the terminology. Most proper mens shops that carry tailored goods also carry the furnishing as well.

...about the change in meaning over time. Harry Truman was a haberdasher, and his biography by McCullough (pages 145-147) goes into great detail on the Kansas City shop, which is basically everything but suits, outerwear, and shoes. You don't get more American than Kansas City. So I'm not sure there really is a UK/US disconnect.

From a change over time standpoint, the shift from specialization to a haberdasher selling, shoes, suits, ties, etc, makes sense. Fewer men dressing up meant that highly specialized retailers couldn't get the volume to sustain their business. Also, the rise of department stores meant that you could get everything there -- so If you wanted to compete you had to offer more selection and convenience.

 

[BellyTank]

Outside of the US, a Haberdashery sells sewing goods, buttons and nick-nacks-

1. a retail dealer in men's furnishings, as shirts, ties, gloves, socks, and hats.
2. Chiefly British. a dealer in small wares and notions.


But regarding the question-
they should have what you would expect them to.
Nothing less but hopefully more-


B
T

 

[CharlestonBows]

...about the change in meaning over time. Harry Truman was a haberdasher, and his biography by McCullough (pages 145-147) goes into great detail on the Kansas City shop, which is basically everything but suits, outerwear, and shoes. You don't get more American than Kansas City. So I'm not sure there really is a UK/US disconnect.

It's all geographical, I suppose. Might be a generational thing, as well, see below..

From a change over time standpoint, the shift from specialization to a haberdasher selling, shoes, suits, ties, etc, makes sense. Fewer men dressing up meant that highly specialized retailers couldn't get the volume to sustain their business. Also, the rise of department stores meant that you could get everything there -- so If you wanted to compete you had to offer more selection and convenience.

Well, I'm sure the dept. stores had a something to do with it. But really, if you think about it, you'd have to sell a heck of a lot of blazer buttons in order to make it in today's retail world.

Perfect, and local, example. You all know Ben Silver as a classic mens clothier. This was not always so. Ben Silver began as a seller of collegiate blazer buttons. They had to evolve, and became what they are today. (I know the story all too well - my current firm's founder was the president of retail operations there, and developed the Ben Silver clothing concept.)

 

[Mid-fogey]

Having said...

...what I think is the classical definition, I'll say that the more comprehensive view is probably more current.

The term "clothier" (whatever that means) seems to be much used these days.

 

[Ecuador Jim]

Checking the dictionary...

A haberdasher is someone who sells small items by retail, normally clothing accessories.

I agree that the more comprehensive definition reflects current expectations.

 

[Bill Taylor]

I always thought Brooks Brothers was referred to as a haberdashery, and they sold just about everything, except maybe not shoes. Of course, in these days Brooks is sort of dead in the water, losing out to Ralph Lauren and Polo . The best Brooks were NYC and the Brooks in San Francisco, where I lived for a long time (48 years in SF, 10 years in NYC). The Brooks in LA or Beverly Hills wasn't exactly wonderful. Also, wasn't Robert Kirk in San Francisco (long gone now) referred to as a haberdashery? They also had about the same selection and style as Brooks, just a different label.