Watch Chains

[Feraud]

A great point!

 

[JimWagner]

I like that side entry left watch pocket. Who sells that shirt?

 

[Feraud]

http://www.e-workers.net/

 

[fluteplayer07]

So my pocket watch will be returning from Girard's for repair soon (anyone have experience with them before--I know one Lounger has; they recommended Girard's to me, but I forgot their name), and I'm debating chains. I want to wear it with my dress outfits (2/3 of a 3 piece suit, a DB sportcoat w/o a waistcoat, and a SB sport coat w/o a waistcoat), and casual clothes (usually jeans or chino shorts and a dress shirt). For the dress clothes, I assume a simple single chain and T-bar setup that can attach to the lapel, or the buttonhole on the waistcoat when I'm in the 3 piece. And for casual wear, it's a spring loaded loop and single chain that attaches to my belt loop and into my pocket. Is this right; I need one of each type?


Thanks,

 

[Shangas]

For wearing a pocket watch with a coat or jacket, it's best placed in the ******-pocket. You'll need an Albert chain or a pocket-watch fob-strap to keep it attached to the lapel buttonhole.

If you're wearing a pocket-watch with a waistcoat, an Albert or Double Albert is the usual choice.

If you're wearing a pocket-watch with trousers, a spring-ring chain is best. Some might suggest fob-straps, but without an actual attachment-point to your clothes, the watch could fall out and break.

 

[Michaelson]

I do the same, Shangus, though I've never practiced the lapel hole carry myself. I either wear a vest or a pair of trousers with a pocket under a suitcoat. My watches tend to fall out of a ****** pocket when I've tried that. I guess I lean over too much. (grins)

I have an Albert for my vests, but a spring ring chain for my trousers, and they vary in make and length....though I find a 7 inch chain to work best for me in that respect.

Regards! Michaelson

 

[Feraud]

If you're wearing a pocket-watch with a waistcoat, an Albert or Double Albert is the usual choice.

Would I be beating a dead horse to mention the term "Albert" is a very modern and and informal way to describe double chains? In addition, to use the term to describe a single chain is straight up misnomer.

I am usually not this pedantic but the Lounge is a place were tend to correct sartorial and related misconceptions. If we give as much attention to correcting the myth that Kennedy killed the hat then this subject deserves a chance.

Someone has to champion the lowly watch chain.

 

[Michaelson]

What is your source of information on that, Feraud? Every reference I've read to date, and I'm a member of two watch collecting groups, has always refered to them as single or double Albert chains. [huh]

Just curious, and always willing to learn something new.

Regards !Michaelson

 

[Feraud]

My comments are based on what I've seen listed in catalogs. There are interesting descriptions for various chain styles but nothing referred to as the "Albert style".
I realize the term refers to a double chain worn apparently in the style of Prince Albert. The latest reference to a single chain as a “single Albert” is puzzling.
I’ve tried to find an early reference to the Albert style but cannot.
Would any of the watch collectors know of an early reference or is the term simply a colloquial one? I am thinking the latter.
I usually try not to dwell on semantics too much but I love this subject (watch chains) and would love to know the earliest use of this term.

I wonder if the OED has an entry for the term..

 

[Michaelson]

Excellent question! That's one I'll put to the collectors forum and see if I can get an answer of some sort!

I'm with you there, my friend! The discussion of horology has always fascinated me.

Regards! Michaelson

 

[Shangas]

I've always known those two chains as the Albert and Double Albert respectively. Never known for them to be called anything else.

 

[Feraud]

I am sure that is the case.
Similar to the Bash discussion I am trying to pin down when this term became prevalent. I am sure, but willing to learn otherwise, this is a recent term (no more than a decade or so..) and probably after the rise of Ebay. I do not recall flea markets or antique shops using the term in the late 80s+ when I started collecting.

 

[Shangas]

Everything that I ever learnt, read or studied about pocket-watches taught me that the T-bar chains were called the Albert and Double Albert and that "Albert" was Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria. How *old* this term is, I've no idea, but given that it's named after someone who died 150 years ago, I'd assume it's been around for a considerably long period of time.

Of course if you find something that says otherwise, post it here and re-educate us.

 

[Feraud]

Everything that I ever learnt, read or studied about pocket-watches taught me that the T-bar chains were called the Albert and Double Albert and that "Albert" was Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria. How *old* this term is, I've no idea, but given that it's named after someone who died 150 years ago, I'd assume it's been around for a considerably long period of time.

Of course if you find something that says otherwise, post it here and re-educate us.

Re-educate? I am asking you to post your sources for the claim. If you think the terms have been around longer than a decade or so please post something from those sources your say you've read and studied?
Saying, "I read it somewhere" is no proof the term is as old as Albert himself. Which is what I believe you are implying.

I do not need to post proof because I do not think the term for a watch chain is "Single Albert", etc. So.. there are no old sources to reference. That would be like trying to reference Roman writings to prove they didn't use the word computer or laptop, etc.

It's put up time.

 

[Shangas]

I'm not saying it hasn't, I'm just saying that every source I've read mentions them as Albert chains and I've never noticed anything to the contrary. Whether or not this is a recent thing, I can't comment. I merely said that if you could show that it was a recent naming convention, to show where it said so, since this claim is totally new to me.

 

[Doc Average]

I'm in no way an expert, but a quick scout of the Oxford English Dictionary website suggests that the first recorded usage of "Albert" with reference to a watch chain was in 1861:

http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50005193?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=albert&first=1&max_to_show=10


Hope this helps!

 

[Feraud]

Hey Doc, the line requires a log in. Do you have access?

 

[Doc Average]

Oh - I didn't realise! Sorry, I thought it was an open access site. I work at a University, so we must have an account with OED. I don't know what the login is. I'll cut and paste instead. I won't doctor the quotes, honest!

1. A kind of watch-chain.
1861 Daily Rev. (Edinburgh) 16 Dec. 4/5 (Advt.), Rings, Eardrops, Albert and Guard Chains. 1865 DICKENS Let. 22 Apr. (1880) II. 228 What's an Albert chain? 1883 Daily News 5 Feb. 3/4 Stealing..a silver watch and Albert chain. Mod. Advt. Lost, a gold albert with two seals. 1922 JOYCE Ulysses 431 Wearing gent's sterling silver waterbury keyless watch and double curb Albert with seal attached.



Hey! 15 posts at last!

 

[Feraud]

Awesome, thanks!
I knew if anyplace had it the OED would.
O.k. carry on with your Alberts! Case Closed.

 

[Shangas]

Yah-hey!!

Thanks, Doc. And sorry for any feather-ruffling, Feraud.