Vintage Heat?

[John in Covina]

Glaser "Safety Slugs", IIRC, John. Nice idea, but get real expensive to test for compatibility with your iron.

******
True but the law suit is really expensive.

 

[Twitch]

Yeah Carebear, I have run the gambit of FBI, law enforcement agency and independent tests on calibers like many have but the .45 ACP has the best track record in documented real world encounters by law enforcement agencies.

I have a ***** 9mm I shoot too. It resides alongside my S&W .44 in the drawer but I wouldn't grab it in an emergency.[huh] But ANY caliber is better than none. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

 

[JohnTheGreek]

************
the hollow point helps unload the energy in the target.

Please, don't take offense...but this statement opens up a can of worms. The debate in hunting circles rotates around the role of energy vs. penetration on game and I'm personally of the school that energy is overrated. Using traditionally constructed ******s on large game, it's pretty common knowledge that a .458 diameter 500 grain ****** at 2200 fps will penetrate deeper and more reliably straight than the same ****** (or even a smaller diameter one) at some sufficiently high velocity. Even though the energy of the latter is greater, and it all gets dumped into the target...it won't kill as well because it doesn't necessarily get where it needs to be and may be of smaller diameter and not disrupt as much tissue. There's a reason all the old original hunting rounds in Africa were throwing heavy for calibre ******s at moderate 2200-2400 fps velocities. I have a tough time believing that what's true for a 2000 pound animal and a 500 grain ****** should be untrue for a 200 pound animal and a 230 or 115 grain ******.

Sure, there's a limit to be reached and it can be seen if we consider that a baseball flying at 80mph can transfer a lot of energy to a person but doesn't really kill all that well. Conversely, a .25 Auto can transfer very little energy (relativiely speaking in the ******* world) and still kill. However, this really still highlights my point that, at some level penetration and internal trauma matter more than energy transfer. To be politically incorrect, blood loss kills and that comes from a larger projectile and reliably deeper penetration. The displacement and destruction of a larger amount of tissue and bone (which further disrupts neighboring tissue) is what causes loss of blood and death. There's a pretty obvious reason the .45 auto is a better stopper than the 9mm...and it doesn't have anything to do with energy. You can speed up a 9mm FMJ and raise it's energy level but it wont kill any better unless the projectile opens to larger than .45 and causes more tissue disruption and blood loss. However, if you do this, you're gonna get exit wounds and put others in danger to the same degree you would if you were shooting .45 FMJs in the first place. Assuming I'm not really concerned who is on the other side of my bedroom wall, or behind a guy robbing a gas station, I'd be more than content to use a slow but large projectile (.44, .45 etc) that's gonna get through heavy clothing skin, muscle and bone rather than any high tech 9mm that claims better energy transfer. Frankly, even if I am concerned about bystanders, I would have to wonder if I am putting them in danger more by the exiting ****** or by using non-exiting ammo that might not work as well? Honestly, this is what's behind my love of 45 ACP ball ammo It's cheap, provides perfect function in a 1911 and the target can't hide behind sheetrock.

That's my verbose statement for the day...sorry.

Best,

John

 

[Twitch]

Yep slow, heavy rounds don't necessarily kill immediately. They are fight stoppers which incapacitate.

Our Marine unit was issued .45s and at times we found them invaluable in close in combat. In many respects they were better than long arms given the scenarios.

 

[Masamunect]

I have to agree and up the 45 ACP, it and his awareness saved my uncle's life in Vietnam.

He was sleeping and some charlies charged him.

 

[Jovan]

In the age where more and more attackers wear body armour, though, what's the word on rounds such as FN's 5.7mm and HK's 4.6mm? Just curious.

 

[Diamondback]

In the age where more and more attackers wear body armour, though, what's the word on rounds such as FN's 5.7mm and HK's 4.6mm? Just curious.

The word is it's illegal to own the AP rounds for those cartridges here in the States, which means you're shooting a fast little round that will go straight through without doing much damage. Against an unarmored target, it'll do no good, you're better off to train on the Mozambique Drill. (Two to the chest, then if those fail ya go for the pumpkin (and the stempop if ya can get it). Although Mas Ayoob recommends, for those who have the skill, center-mass, then a pelvic shot (take the legs out from under 'em), then the stempop if you miss the pelvis or it's protected too. Mozambiquing is easier, actually...

 

[carebear]

D-Back hit it.

If the bad guy has armor, as a civilian operating defensively with a *******, you adjust your point of aim. Hopefully you are utilizing cover so you have time to realize center mass hits aren't working and adjust.

Mark Forbes, the man who interrupted the attack on a courthouse in Texas a couple years ago, saving a bunch of lives, stopped the attack after putting in two good hits but the assailant was armored. Mr. Forbes paid for his heroism with his life.

 

[Viola]

Are we supposed to know what a stempop is? Did I miss a chapter of assigned reading?

-Viola

 

[Diamondback]

Sorry, Miss Viola--personal term. Brainstem shot, the swiftest, cleanest kill possible. The catch is, you're trying to hit a target about the size of a large walnut. Hit it, though, and it's lights-out, "Say goodnight, Gracie" time...

 

[Viola]

That makes perfect sense, and I should have gone there but instead I was just kind of "huh? what? Youse West Coasters sure do tawk funny, don'tcha?"

Yeah, that sounds like a hell of a shot to make in combat. You can pick out walnuts all day at the range, but....dang.

-Viola

 

[Diamondback]

OTOH, get a round anywhere between the triangle from the eyes to the bottom of the nose and you've got a good chance of keeping the target appropriately [EDIT] dissuaded from continuing the fight.[/EDIT]

 

[Jovan]

Whoa, this is getting a bit horrible.

 

[Jovan]

That's not it. I don't mind a frank discussion of ballistics against armoured and unarmoured foes, but making jokes with emoticons about taking a human life is not cool.

 

[Diamondback]

Fixed--that look better? (Gotta keep reminding myself this isn't the other TFL...)

 

[carebear]

jovan,

It isn't "joking" in terms of taking such things lightly, but rather use of humor to keep horrible, yet sometimes necessary, things from too negatively psychologically impacting the innocent party.

No one disputes that taking a life, even perfectly justifiably, is never a happy thing, but, assuming it is justifaiable and necessary, a little disassociation through humor can make the mechanics a little easier to deal with.

Trust me, you don't want the actual physiological effects of a CNS shot detailed, a little euphemism can be a good thing.

 

[Diamondback]

+1 there, carebear. I've only done academic study aside from the range, but having to discharge a firearm in a defensive scenario ranks up there among the very worst of my nightmares.

I've done an above-average amount of study of A&P, with some research on wound-ballistics and terminal effects, and it is genuinely a horrible subject without something to "lighten" it a little and keep you sane.

And re the pelvic shot, I've got a reference from another board, but am uncertain about posting it here.

 

[carebear]

Save it.

If folks are interested, they'll ask. Don't want to drift too far away from the focus.

What's interesting is that none of this is particularly new. William Fairbairn, among others, was writing about the subject from the turn of the century through the World Wars. Personal defense is as vintage as it gets.

 

[Viola]

If anything self-defense was more highly prized then, along with greater expectation that civilians would look out for themselves and their neighbors more than now when everything is left to the police.

Don't get me wrong, I have the upmost respect for the police, I just don't think they have magic teleportation powers. I mean who really wants their murder solved?

-Viola

 

[Erik]

If I had to stick with three, and I will:

The Colt 1911A1, Thompson Sub-Machine ***, and the Smith and Wesson Registered Magnum.