Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[2jakes]

I know this is a little off topic, but it is related. I have been looking at WWll USN knit watch caps on eBay and other sites. Some appear black and some appear dark blue. Is this a situation similar to the peacoat where the true color is a midnight blue? Reproduction watch caps from Buzz Rickson and other outlets muddy the waters by making them available in both navy blue and black. Are vintage watch caps midnight blue, not black? Did the US Navy even make black watch caps?

ebay color photos can be deceiving in the sense that sellers use whatever they have
to display the item. Indoors will give a warmer color while outdoors a darker tone.

 

[ZenEdge]

Thanks for the

Here's the current USN website:
https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-...ulations/uniformcomponents/Pages/3501_11.aspx

The current regs specify a dark or navy blue. I am curious what the WWII Vietnam regs specified.

 

[Doctor Damage]

One thing I found interesting in the regs you posted was the post war regulation that allowed the WWII peacoat to be worn with the top two buttons undone and the lapels folded back. This made it more consistent with the "new" post WWII version, although the lapels were unruly when worn in this manner.

The coat was designed for all buttons, including the top two at the throat, to be buttoned, and that is what the regs required. The sailors hated this, and routinely unbuttoned those top two buttons when on shore leave. They, of course, risked running afoul of the SP, who enforced all regulations, including, and especially, clothing regulations.

When a long time friend of mine gave me his 1965 peacoat, he showed me the WWII peacoat his uncle had worn during the war. He said he wore the WWII version instead of his issued one toward the end of his tour. That reg explains how he was able to do so.

That's useful stuff, especially since it confirms that the regulations are one thing, but what actually gets worn is often a second thing!

My research days are over. I am willing to sit back, rest on my laurels and accept an honorary doctorate in Peacoat History from an institution of higher learning, with an impeccable reputation. I have pretty much taken the peacoat back to WWI. That is enough provenance for me.

A bit of ivy attached to my honorary diploma would be nice, but I would consider accepting one from Stanford, Vanderbilt, UVA or Duke. Doctor Peacoat has a better feel to it than Mr. Peacoat.

Don't give up. Now you need to write an article on this, especially with your tag knowledge, to help counter all the nonsense and misinformation which clutters the internet. Or at least pull together everything you know into a document so I can write it up into something. I've done that for nomex flight jackets and it's fun to do.

 

[Doctor Damage]

I might have mentioned this before but that Japanese photo book I mentioned in the bridge coat thread has several peacoats in it, mostly of the WW1 style. The flaps on the hip pockets show up with either rounded corners (as in the regulations) but also with square corners (about half the coats shown have square cornered flaps). The book also includes photos of a pea coat which is says is from the "1920s/1930s" but I don't necessarily trust that; it has 10 buttons the the bottom 8 are positioned lower so that the lapels can lay down; the tag is a paper/cardboard tag which is torn although it does say US Naval Clothing Factories. I wonder if this was an experimental design or maybe a women's version.

 

[Doctor Damage]

USS Mason in WW2

 

[Peacoat]

I might have mentioned this before but that Japanese photo book I mentioned in the bridge coat thread has several peacoats in it, mostly of the WW1 style. The flaps on the hip pockets show up with either rounded corners (as in the regulations) but also with square corners (about half the coats shown have square cornered flaps). The book also includes photos of a pea coat which is says is from the "1920s/1930s" but I don't necessarily trust that; it has 10 buttons the the bottom 8 are positioned lower so that the lapels can lay down; the tag is a paper/cardboard tag which is torn although it does say US Naval Clothing Factories. I wonder if this was an experimental design or maybe a women's version.

I wouldn't trust it either as the peacoat of the 1920s/1930s is what we call the WWI peacoat. See pictures below. If the picture you saw didn't look like the coats pictured below, it wasn't a peacoat of the 1920s/1930s.

 

[Peacoat]

Back to the date the WWI peacoat changed to the WWII peacoat. I had posted this before but forgot about it. It was kinda rattling around my head with no firm destination until just a few minutes ago.

Back a number of years ago, maybe 10 years ago, I saw a listing on ebay for a 1934 peacoat in my size, a 42. It had belonged to the grandfather of the woman who was selling it. I must have had her describe it. She described a WWI peacoat. If she had posted a picture, I would have copied the picture and put it in my archives. She was starting the bidding at something like $25, and there was no interest in it. It was spring/summer and peacoats just weren't on bidders' minds.

I wanted that peacoat, but I didn't want to steal it from the woman. This was back in the day when ebay would allow members to exchange email addresses. We made contact and I told her what she had. I didn't know the value, but I told her it was worth more than $100, it wasn't the right time of year to sell it and that she should close the auction and save the coat for her son. She did and I told her I wanted the coat, and in the future if she wanted to sell it, to please contact me. I haven't heard from her. I think I did a follow up email about a year later to ask her if she wanted to sell. No reply.

Looking back with a clear mind what I should have done was to tell her what she had, that I didn't know the value, but was willing to give her $200 for the coat. That it might bring more than that if offered at the proper time of year, or it might bring less, I just didn't know. But I didn't do that, and I have kicked myself several times a year for it. I ethically couldn't bid on that coat and risk getting it for less than $50, or even less than $100, but I wish I had done something differently.

Her father went in the Navy in 1934. So, we know the WWI peacoat was in service until at least 1934. Spoon places the year of the change by 1938, and that sounds right to me. For some reason I have thought 1936 was the year of the change. I know that I haven't seen photographs of WWII sailors wearing WWI peacoats.

 

[Doctor Damage]

 

[DaveProc]

Thank you for sharing!

 

[Wyldkarma]

Great guide. Thank you. This appears to be 1949? issue peacoat. Got to wear it breifly again when the temps dropped into the 40's several days ago. I don't have a Navy cap but my panel cap works better in my civilian attire anyway. Wool appears to be in excellent shape, not sure type of wool though other than it is one super heavy duty coat. No buttons on the sleeves only a double stitch on thread.

 

[Peacoat]

Yes, that is a 1949 coat with the thick Kersey wool. I have had several reports that the shell on the 1949 coats is nicer than the other years. My experience mirrors this observation.

Nice fit, but I wouldn't think it would be cold enough in Austin, even in the dead of winter, to require a peacoat. Maybe everything I know about Texas may not be accurate.

 

[Wyldkarma]

Yes, that is a 1949 coat with the thick Kersey wool. I have had several reports that the shell on the 1949 coats is nicer than the other years. My experience mirrors this observation.

Nice fit, but I wouldn't think it would be cold enough in Austin, even in the dead of winter, to require a peacoat. Maybe everything I know about Texas may not be accurate.

Thanks, it's a size 42. You're correct. Not too many days of cold weather here. We get some 15 degree days here, most of our short winter in austin is more 30s to 40s. Wont get alot of wear, but it popped up on my local Craigslist for $85 and I just couldn't pass that deal up especially once I saw how pristine it was. I'm from Wisconsin and we travel to snow locations like WI, Sante Fe, Colorado, Boston, and Germany so it will get to see a little action.

 

[Peacoat]

Didn't realize you got 15 degree days there. 30s to 40s is definitely peacoat weather, so you will get to wear it.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Def a good version Ken. Enjoy every second you get to wear it. Pea coat is one of the only things in winter that gives me a smile.
B

 

[O'DubhGhaill]

Highly informative thread - I've saved Peacoat's outstanding Guide page and want to thank "responsible D" for the sewing tips! I am going to try lengthening the sleeves of a 40R DSCP coat tonight! Thanks to Peacoat's dating and history Guide, I was able to just this week, identify and score (total cost: $67.59) this coat for my son, who although is only 14 yrs old with a 30" chest, should grow into this great '66!:

 

[Peacoat]

@O'DubhGhaill That 34 is a good score. They are hard to find. I have one for my wife, but it is a 1980 coat with the Melton wool. A 34 is a bit large on her, but that is about as good as I can do. Don't think they made a size 32. But being a girl she prefers the more fashionable stuff, even if it isn't nearly as warm. When it is really cold, she will switch to the peacoat and layer to take up the space between body and coat.

You will need to get a thick (really thick) wooden coat hanger, or make one out of hard foam pipe insulation. The wire hangers aren't good for the shell.

 

[O'DubhGhaill]

Peacoat, thanks for the response. I too, have never found an issue size 32, so my son will have to "bulk up," one way or another - like me at his age, he's gaining height, not mass, although he has already surpassed me in height! You are absolutely correct (as always here ) about the hangers. I've been using these (available from Amazon here) and the trouser bar is great for hanging the requisite scarf, watchcap, gloves, etc., assigned to that particular coat:

 

[O'DubhGhaill]

Here's another album showing extending the sleeve length.

https://imgur.com/a/5nQa4Lh

I see that you were able to do this to a pre-67 coat - do you think this would work on modern issue coats, DCPS Sterlingwear? I would sure love to be able to gain an inch on the sleeves of a 2000's issue 40R!

 

[Peacoat]

I see that you were able to do this to a pre-67 coat - do you think this would work on modern issue coats, DCPS Sterlingwear? I would sure love to be able to gain an inch on the sleeves of a 2000's issue 40R!

That depends on the amount of available material on the inside of the cuff. I just checked the cuff of my wife's 34s, and there isn't much material there. Probably varies with the coat. Take it to a tailor or a seamstress and see what a professionals thinks.

Those hangers are the business. That's exactly what you need. They are expensive but effective. I saw them once on sale for $5 apiece. I grabbed two handfuls, and now wish I had gotten more.

In an earlier post I mentioned that a size 34 was about as good as I could do, but I forgot about the WWII coats. I have seen the stray 32 in that style, but never in the post war models. Now that more women are in the Navy, there is a version for women, but they are all post 1980 with the Melton shell. A size 32 would probably have the same sleeve and body lengths as a 34.

 

[O'DubhGhaill]

So the cuff mod didn't work well on the '66. However, there is a good deal of material tucked up under the 1/2" cuff seam, so I'm having it lowered 1 1/2" and having the seam resewn as original. I resewed all the buttons using Responsible D's instruction using good black nylon thread and the job is outstanding, if I have to say so myself. Over time, these buttons were replaced and resewn not quite where they should have been. Made measurements and got spacing in four directions just right, including the very top under collar.

I picked up a '62 from the original owner, Craig's list, shipped, size 36R (for when my son outgrows the 34R), however it has a bit more wear, some minor fraying on the vertical edge of the rear bottom back inner flap, typical liner separation at the top of that back slit area, buttons need redoing, but otherwise, it should look good after a dryclean.

Lastly, I found a WWII coat size 38 or 40, seller not sure, very dusty, but no mothing apparently, almost same price as the '66 above, ... arriving tomorrow, straight to the drycleaner, then assess...we shall see: