Optimo south side mobsters

[Mulceber]

Care to give us a display of your week's worth of Optimo's? I'd love to see a compilation. -M

 

[Neil]

I'll try to get around to it. But really, they're a pretty understated pile of hats. . .grays, pale, medium and dark, a brown, dark moss green, and now oxblood and dark tan. All with normal or slightly large brims, all with un-flashy ribbons. Nothing like the eye-catching stuff at the Art Fawcett Hall of Fame. Mine are meant to go with business suits. Conservative as it gets.

 

[Neil]

Two more in 7 5/8 up on EBay. Man, this guy has a collection. I, tough, as vowed, am not hitting the bid key.

 

[Mulceber]

Looks like they're a couple of older Optimos too. I'm tempted, but my budget really can't afford it. The Homburg was my limit. -M

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

The wait for my reblocked, new ribboned Stetson is killing me. Over 2 weeks waiting period. I still have a week and 1 day to go!

LOL

 

[Neil]

Oxblood and Willow Optimos arrived today. Superb hats. Not a flaw. I suppose they could be described as perfect. And the price was. . . .right.

 

[cookie]

Anyone like to tell whats behind this Bimmerzimmer guy selling all these Optimos in a wanted size = 7 5/8 and only getting USD150 for USD600 hats...?????

 

[Mulceber]

Don't know his reasons, but I'm grateful - the Homburg I got from him is in like-new condition. -M

 

[Neil]

Optimo guy

Well, that's not quite true. I paid a good deal more than $150 each for the two hats I bought from him, but then the two hats I bought from him were new, unblemished, unworn (as far as I can see), recent-model Optimos in pretty desirable colors. . . oxblood, and a dark tan with a grey ribbon.
The ones that went for $150 were, I think, black. He had at least three black hats, and black hats, especially homburgs, are not greatly sought-after items, even if they are Optimos in a rare size. There were zero bids, I think, on a couple of them, at least for most of the listing.
So I guess that's why. Also, Optimo's new prices are a tad unrealistic in the first place, in my humble opinion. Not that they aren't great hats. . . .they are. But they aren't, cannot be, literally twice as good as Art Fawcett's or Gary White's. They're just marketed very well indeed. And good for Graham. I applaud him.

 

[rlk]

Well, that's not quite true. I paid a good deal more than $150 each for the two hats I bought from him, but then the two hats I bought from him were new, unblemished, unworn (as far as I can see), recent-model Optimos in pretty desirable colors. . . oxblood, and a dark tan with a grey ribbon.
The ones that went for $150 were, I think, black. He had at least three black hats, and black hats, especially homburgs, are not greatly sought-after items, even if they are Optimos in a rare size. There were zero bids, I think, on a couple of them, at least for most of the listing.
So I guess that's why. Also, Optimo's new prices are a tad unrealistic in the first place, in my humble opinion. Not that they aren't great hats. . . .they are. But they aren't, cannot be, literally twice as good as Art Fawcett's or Gary White's. They're just marketed very well indeed. And good for Graham. I applaud him.

The same applies to all kinds of luxury goods. You pay increasingly large amounts for ever smaller amounts of "quality " differences(if any). Is a Stetson 100 10 X better than a Royal Stetson?
It may well cost 2X for Optimo to produce a hat than Art(expenses of Store,Employees Equipment, Insurance...)

 

[Mulceber]

Easy, RLK, no need to get defensive about Optimo - no one was calling the quality of their product into question. Also, keep in mind that while what you're saying about expenses might apply to Art, it most certainly doesn't apply to either Gary White or Dave Brown, both of whom own hat shops in major metropolitan areas and who sell hats for ~$300. To my mind, Neil's right - Optimo is able to charge what they do because they've got a great name and better marketing. And good for them. -M

 

[rlk]

Just the facts...Their expenses would be somewhere in between Optimo and Art. I personally have not handled their hats so cannot make a quality judgement.

Gary White

 

[Mulceber]

Art typically charges right around $300 for his hats. Both of those companies are charging around $300 for their rabbit/beaver blend, which is probably the closest to what Optimo sells. Thus, Gary White and Dave Brown both charge about the same as Art for a hat that is similar to Optimo in terms of the materials used. I've never handled a Gary White hat, but I have seen a couple of Dave Brown's works before, and they're pretty good stuff. Perhaps not quite as nice as the hats produced at Optimo, but similar. -M

 

[rlk]

Art typically charges right around $300 for his hats. Both of those companies are charging around $300 for their rabbit/beaver blend, which is probably the closest to what Optimo sells. Thus, Gary White and Dave Brown both charge about the same as Art for a hat that is similar to Optimo in terms of the materials used. I've never handled a Gary White hat, but I have seen a couple of Dave Brown's works before, and they're pretty good stuff. Perhaps not quite as nice as the hats produced at Optimo, but similar. -M

Could not make the direct comparison because of no examples, but the Optimo felts, which vary, are not economy blends but a custom blend and dying for them. This is what necessitates the annual limited colors as they need to buy the years total at one time to create a large enough single run order rather than buying a stock product. I would consider the felts to be superior to many "100% Beaver"(like many Vintage felts). This is not specifically a defense of Optimo but repeatedly trying to correct the perception that % of beaver directly equates to max quality and value. Art's Ivory is equal in cost to an Optimo. Optimo and Art do not charge $58.50 for a welt edge or say "X" price and up.

I wish all of these guys the best and don't want to make a competition. Each hatter has to come up with a working business model and scale and I don't think any of them are getting rich quick. Relative to cars or clothing the range of Custom hat pricing is far more reasonable. Remember the $700.00 Hermes T-Shirt(not Custom), multi-$1000 suits and shoes and multi $100,000 cars. None of these are functionally or objectively multiple levels "better". All these Hatters are expensive relative to the mass-produced product but not really beyond reason for the quality offered. I would pretty much put them in a comparable pricing range with particular individual strengths--not the least being a personal relationship one may build with that person.

 

[Mulceber]

are not economy blends but a custom blend and dying for them.

Who's to say that Gary White and Dave Brown are buying "economy blends?" I think it's kind of an insult to them.

Optimo and Art do not charge $58.50 for a welt edge

So? A lot of great hatters charge extra for special types of brims: Tumwater and Adventurebilt Deluxe both do that. In fact, there's an argument to be made for AB Deluxe being better than Optimo since they hand-stitch their sweatbands. I'm not saying one's better than the other, just that the implied rebuke of Dave Brown for charging extra for special brim work is a slap in the face to many of our community's best hatters.

or say "X" price and up.

I fail to see how that's much different from what Optimo does. All hatters have a minimum price at which they sell hats. For some, that price is fixed and won't go down or up. For others it's a minimum price with an additional price for add-ons. For still others the price isn't stated but will never be lower than a certain point. Perhaps I'm misreading you and you did not intend your comment as a criticism, but if so, I fail to see what the point of your comment was in the first place.

Each hatter has to come up with a working business model and scale and I don't think any of them are getting rich quick.

Oh I don't think any of them are either, and I don't think that was what anyone was suggesting. You don't go into the hatmaking business to make a bundle. What we're saying is that it's a free market out there and businessmen will sell their product at the price people will pay. Optimo has an excellent reputation and business model (their style, their status as an "old-time" hatter in Chicago, their yearly run of custom felts, etc), a devoted clientele and the patronage of Hollywood in many noteworthy period films and so they're able to charge a bit more than a lot of other hatters with custom shops. Heck, they're able to charge more than they themselves were 2-3 years ago. That's not to say that Graham's using the extra money to finance a Ferrari - more likely, I imagine he's using what extra money he makes to expand his business, explore different custom felts and promote Optimo. It's actually a thing of beauty, when you think about it. Which is exactly what Neil was saying and I agree with. -M

 

[Bruce Wayne]

... That's not to say that Graham's using the extra money to finance a Ferrari - more likely, I imagine he's using what extra money he makes to expand his business, explore different custom felts and promote Optimo...

He didn't buy a Ferrari. He bought a BMW, saw it assembled in Germany, Drove it on the Autobahn & had it shipped over to the states on a boat.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Also, Graham does not advertise in the regular sense that we are used to, in such as buying ad space & renting bilboards. He prefers word of mouth advertising. That is one of the reasons he isn't a member of this or any other forum. He has over the last few years upgraded his shop. When I first started visiting him in 07, his place wasn't much more of a storefront with some display cases. Since then, the area that is open to customers is more than twice the size it is. When I first started visiting him, I bought two or three felt hats the first year, if not more. I have ended up selling most of them as time past. Now, with standard weight, smooth finish felts going for $600 I have a hard time justifing one felt hat a year. Hopefully, when I get a new job I can justify more, but not right now.

 

[Mulceber]

Also, Graham does not advertise in the regular sense that we are used to, in such as buying ad space & renting bilboards.

True that, I was thinking "promote Optimo" more in the sense of the trunk shows, events and newsletter he mentions on his front page. -M

 

[Delthayre]

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

There is no absolute, Platonic price for anything and price isn't strictly a result of materials used, fixed costs and labor costs, although those are a large component of it and in Optimo's case, the latter two are probably substantially larger components than for other hatters. Price is the intersection of the seller's willingness to sell at a given price and buyer's like willingness to buy and price also serves to ration the scarce, in the sense of being available only in ultimately finite quantities, resource, which are in this case hats. Recall how Steven Delk has raised his prices greatly over time as demand for his hats has grown. In the case of Optimo, my first guess is that increasing purchases by increasingly affluent customers accounts for the high prices. If competition in the market for premium hats increases, then Optimo's prices would likely need to fall for the company to go on. The market for premium hats might be slightly strange and minimally competitive given its relatively few and relatively obscure sellers.

 

[B.J. Hedberg]

worthlesswithoutpics

For some reason I was thinking Optimo was quite substantially far more expensive than it turns out they are, (even for the specialty colors) so I'm a bit excited. Maybe next year. I’d love to cross the fantastic coloring of DRB’s hat and wind trolley, with that of RLK’s, if I can build up the hat fund.

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