Japanese leather in-country vs export

[greenc]

Hi everyone,

Hope the weekend's been good to you all.

I was speaking with some of the guys on Vintage Leather Jackets about a Buzz Rickson's leather flight jacket from Japan and one the members who spends 6-7 months a year there said that the Japanese manufacturers save the best quality leather garments for their domestic market, and send the lesser quality pieces out to export.

I'm not denying his point of view on this, I'm just curious if any of you all had heard anything similar.

I've not been fortunate enough yet to travel to Japan so my experience with manufacturers are the pieces I've seen in North America and those that have been sent to me off of Buyee, etc.

I'm a fan of RMC, Rainbow Country, and Freewheelers but it never occurred to me that the quality would be different for pieces in country versus those that they export.

Have any of you heard of this practice and/or experienced it firsthand? Again, I'm not saying that our VLJ friend is incorrect, rather that this was the first I've heard of it. Looking for any additional information, thanks very much.

Take care, speak soon.

Chris

 

[Monitor]

Nonsense of the highest order.

That there are brands deliberately making clothes of lower quality for export isn't even worth commenting upon.

As for the tanneries, it's a marketing spin. Tanneries don't save anything for anyone per se - it's just that some Japanese brands have custom tanned leather on order with certain tanneries that is exclusive to them.

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

I'm not sure what spending 6-7 months/year in Japan has to do with knowing that those brands deliberately export their lesser items to the US. Gonna need more to go on than time spent in Japan.

The only case I've seen is when some brands export their higher quality stuff to Western markets and the inferior items (which did not pass QC) are exported to less developed parts of the world or sold domestically. This is associated more with cost-cutting fast-fashion brands and some designer brands (e.g. Armani/Ralph Lauren/Boss). Believe me, I've lived in one of the South Asian countries that you'd see on the "Made in ..." tag and have family that have worked in the industry. So, it does happen.

I doubt these niche leatherware, vintage-repro makers engage in that type of practice for reasons mentioned above. None of them go to Shinki and say I'll have X of your finest leather and Y of your 2-nd grade stuff.

This might be the only time I've seen a Japanese brand put out something like what you're describing. But still, it's intentionally leather with imperfections and they're upfront about it. I also don't think this is just made exclusively for the US market.

 

[greenc]

Thank you everyone, much appreciated - I had never heard of that practice and it sounds completely counterintuitive that a brand - any brand - would purposefully not make the highest quality product available to any and all markets.

Just the same, I'm sure there are particulars at work that I'm not aware of regarding all kinds of manufacturing and marketing so I wanted to put the question to the group. Thank you again.

Chris

 

[jchance]

There’s a similar example: it is well known that Lost Worlds, a US-based leather maker, uses thinner, lower quality hide for the JP market compared to the US market. It is not surprising that Lost Worlds wants to protect its brand domestically and rides on its brand internationally without providing the comparable quality.

It is not inconceivable for the JP leather jacket makers to favor their own domestic market with higher quality leathers, just like LW does for its own domestic market, for whatever their own reasons. If there’s smoke (rumor), there must have been a fire somewhere that started it. For those not in the know, they might not realize it and operate on standard assumptions, which are fair.

It takes more data points to compare and know exactly if the rumor turns out to be true.

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

There’s a similar example: it is well known that Lost Worlds, a US-based leather maker, uses thinner, lower quality hide for the JP market compared to the US market. It is not surprising that Lost Worlds wants to protect its brand domestically and rides on its brand internationally without providing the comparable quality.

I have no idea why this misconception about LW keeps coming up - this has been mentioned in several threads. Stuart wants his jackets to be great no matter where they end up - domestically or internationally.

Those hides were made-to-spec for Japanese retailers when Stuart used to do that business decades back. That's literally how his Japanese customers requested it. He didn't pull a bait-and-switch.

If you order a 4.5+oz jacket from him, that is what you get - no matter where in the world you are located. Same applies to 2.5oz.

 

[Aloysius]

There’s a similar example: it is well known that Lost Worlds, a US-based leather maker, uses thinner, lower quality hide for the JP market compared to the US market. It is not surprising that Lost Worlds wants to protect its brand domestically and rides on its brand internationally without providing the comparable quality.

It is not inconceivable for the JP leather jacket makers to favor their own domestic market with higher quality leathers, just like LW does for its own domestic market, for whatever their own reasons. If there’s smoke (rumor), there must have been a fire somewhere that started it. For those not in the know, they might not realize it and operate on standard assumptions, which are fair.

It takes more data points to compare and know exactly if the rumor turns out to be true.

LW provides them the leather that they specifically request.

 

[Monitor]

I can't stop thinking about how funny it is how of course it's only on VLJ that such a boomer conspiracy theory would have still managed to thrive.

 

[Carlos840]

There’s a similar example: it is well known that Lost Worlds, a US-based leather maker, uses thinner, lower quality hide for the JP market compared to the US market. It is not surprising that Lost Worlds wants to protect its brand domestically and rides on its brand internationally without providing the comparable quality.

It is not inconceivable for the JP leather jacket makers to favor their own domestic market with higher quality leathers, just like LW does for its own domestic market, for whatever their own reasons. If there’s smoke (rumor), there must have been a fire somewhere that started it. For those not in the know, they might not realize it and operate on standard assumptions, which are fair.

It takes more data points to compare and know exactly if the rumor turns out to be true.

Source please, cause this is absolute fabrication.

It is well known that people talk **** about LW without knowing what they are talking about.

The only use of "Lower Quality" hides being used by LW was the "Flamingo" label, which used B stock unmatched hides.
These where sold in the US at a heavy discount.

There never was a "lower quality hide for the JP market", you are making that up.

 

[TartuWolf]

Myself I've never said (or meant to say) that LW uses lower quality hides for JP market, but I did warn folks about buying LW jackets from JP if they are expecting the "real" LW experience as LW is well known for working with thick and heavy hides requiring serious break in. There's a reason some LW jackets sell for 200-300eur there - much thinner hide than you would expect without knowing about this in advance. Doesn't mean they are lower quality, just rather disappointing if you're expecting to get a beast of a jacket.

 

[Tom71]

What I "have heard":

- FW is not producing leather jackets (for some years now), allegedly due to inferior leather quality; however other makers are busy offering "shinki" hide jackets.

- makers like Field or Aero frequently delay production times while waiting on hides from Japan or Chigaco.

What I "notice":

- more and more makers are offering "new" leathers from Badalassi or thinner/lighter products from Horween (think "Pinnacle") or don´t disclose their tanneries at all (Vansons "Competion weight" which isn´t really a tannage but a generic name for at least three totally different hides in the past).

What I "infer":

- Places like the EU (and to a lesser extent the US) make it hard to export materials due to excessive boundaries imposed by health/consumer-protection legislation;
in some cases that actually leads to the export of "inferior" products because the real deal isn´t legal in the destination countries (oils from Greece, wines from Argentina, beers not brewed according to "purity" law; c.f. also the ongoing discussion re raw-milk cheeses).

All this doesn´t make the story "Japanes tanneries reserve the best for locals and export inferior products", true. However, local markets can be more attractive in some respects, and in times were demand is above capacity, this may well play a role in making distribition-decisions.

 

[Carlos840]

Myself I've never said (or meant to say) that LW uses lower quality hides for JP market, but I did warn folks about buying LW jackets from JP if they are expecting the "real" LW experience as LW is well known for working with thick and heavy hides requiring serious break in. There's a reason some LW jackets sell for 200-300eur there - much thinner hide than you would expect without knowing about this in advance. Doesn't mean they are lower quality, just rather disappointing if you're expecting to get a beast of a jacket.

This is missinformed...

You can order any jacket from LW in their 2.5oz leahter, it will cost the same price as buying it in 4.5oz leather.

There is no correlation between the price of a LW and it's thickness, just like there is no correlation between a LW jacket thickness and where it is in the world.

There are thick and thin LW jackets in Japan, there are thick and thin LW jackets in the US.

Be aware, most japanese jackets are from LW's early days (90s and early 2000) when he still had deals with ressellers that where bulk buying, some where even sold under other labels.
The hide back then was tanned differently, it was still the grey core era before the change of recipe.

Edit: here, the grey core hide visible on the zipper pull, that you are more likely to see on Japanese jackets from the early days compared to the new recipe, both US and JP market used the same hides:

 

[pj_odin]

This is a long-standing argument that has prevailed in various industries, whether it's electronic products, clothing, food, or even appreciationographic films. I have heard this statement more than once. It is related to the market strategies of Japanese enterprises and the cultural habits of the Japanese people, and is not entirely groundless. But when it comes to these retro brands, I can guarantee that there is no need to worry about this situation at all, because this is a very small market. All the leather jackets you can buy are products "made for the Japanese market", and they are just sold abroad by agents.

 

[TartuWolf]

This is missinformed...

You can order any jacket from LW in their 2.5oz leahter, it will cost the same price as buying it in 4.5oz leather.

There is no correlation between the price of a LW and it's thickness, just like there is no correlation between a LW jacket thickness and where it is in the world.

There are thick and thin LW jackets in Japan, there are thick and thin LW jackets in the US.

Be aware, most japanese jackets are from LW's early days (90s and early 2000) when he still had deals with ressellers that where bulk buying, some where even sold under other labels.
The hide back then was tanned differently, it was still the grey core era before the change of recipe.

Edit: here, the grey core hide visible on the zipper pull, that you are more likely to see on Japanese jackets from the early days compared to the new recipe, both US and JP market used the same hides:

Thank you for the additional information / clarification!
I do understand that thicker leather does not equal better quality and that you can request thinner hides when ordering directly from LW as well.
Perhaps you could call me "misinformed" but I definitely did get the impression from hanging around TFL that LW is strongly correlated to heavy and thick leather jackets.
Perhaps these thinner hides are neither the rule nor the exception overall, but most of the LW jackets that I have noticed in JP were clearly made using the thinner hides. And the ones that seemed heavier from the photos also had a more premium price tag.

 

[Carlos840]

Thank you for the additional information / clarification!
I do understand that thicker leather does not equal better quality and that you can request thinner hides when ordering directly from LW as well.
Perhaps you could call me "misinformed" but I definitely did get the impression from hanging around TFL that LW is strongly correlated to heavy and thick leather jackets.
Perhaps these thinner hides are neither the rule nor the exception overall, but most of the LW jackets that I have noticed in JP were clearly made using the thinner hides. And the ones that seemed heavier from the photos also had a more premium price tag.

I don't know what conclusion you are trying to reach...
All LW jackets can be ordered in any hide from 3oz to 5oz.
All jackets have a combination of thicknesses, as the thick stuff isn't usable on collars, pockets, underarms etc.

The thickness are arbitrary numbers to start with, as LW gets whole hides that aren't of even thicknesses, they just cut form the thicker parts for thick jackets and from the thinner parts for thinner jackets.
It's not like CXL where the entire hide has been split to an even thickness.

A lot of larger coats use thinner leather to manage weight (trench coat, pea coat etc), a lot of riding jackets use thicker 4.5o+ leather cause "protetction". The vast majority of jackets are in the 3.5 to 4 oz range.

I don't know how you can claim that "buying LW from Japan is not the "real" LW experience".

As someone who owns more than 15 LW jackets made over 20 years, and has spoken to Stuart about his product for more hours than i should have, this sounds like absolute *******s to me.

 

[greenc]

Thank you all for your responses, I appreciate it. I've previously owned two LW jackets, thank you @cbez, and I currently own a J-24 that I picked up off Buyee and that hide is very thick.

The first piece had a sunrise style back and was made in a batch of 25 pieces by Stu for a Japanese retailer. The other was a US Airforce L-2A style that was produced as a single sample piece for a different retailer. Both were of thinner horsehide but my guess is that both were purposefully made that way to satisfy those respective orders.

Again, as these three samples are the whole of my hands-on experience with LW pieces sourced from Japan, I wanted to pose the question to the group.