Nineteenth Century Explorers' equipment

[Mike K.]

Great thread, great pics. As to the NY hunting photo, the lady is holding an 1894 Winchester carbine, kinda obviates the '89 attribution.

I agree.

 

[H.Johnson]

No problem MJ. Thanks for this contribution.

The progeny of 'Baby' was discussed on another forum some time ago, but I can't find it now. The (apparently well-informed) opinion of one contributor was that the firearm (artillery piece?) was a modified version of a H&H 'punt ***' - a weapon intended to be mounted on a pintle in a boat (usually under a 'hide') firing a huge amount of small shot to bring down a large number of ducks from a flock on the wing with one firing. This was how professional duck hunters in England operated in Baker's time and 2-bore punt ***s are known to have existed, so the suggestion is at least credible.

I think I'd almost rather be trampled by the charging elephant!

Whoops! Sorry, H.Johnson, looks like I de-railed your thread a bit with that off-topic query!

So let me bring it back on topic with a reference to Sir Samuel White Baker, who was known for hunting elephants with a 2-bore(!) ***** in the late 19th century. Baker began exploring Africa in 1861, looking for the source of the Nile.

Baker's *****, which he called "Baby," was a muzzleloader that threw a half-pound lead ball. I can't find any pictures of Baby but it probably looked pretty similar to this historical example:

Made by Holland & Holland, Baker said this about the *****:

"Among other weapons, I had an extraordinary ***** that carried a half-pound percussion shell; this instrument of torture to the hunter was not sufficiently heavy for the weight of the projectile: it only weighted twenty pounds, thus with a charge of ten drachms of powder and a HALF-POUND shell, the recoil was so terrific, that I spun around like a weathercock in a hurricane. I really dreaded my own *****, although I have been accustomed to heavy charges of powder and severe recoils for some years."

 

[shortbow]

Very interesting stuff. Like your info on the punt ***s HJ, but as they were smooth bores, I am wondering if Baby was just as you say, or was it a *****d bore? At the range it was used on tuskers, it probably would not really matter, but an interesting question nes pas?

 

[Story]

Very interesting stuff. Like your info on the punt ***s HJ, but as they were smooth bores, I am wondering if Baby was just as you say, or was it a *****d bore? At the range it was used on tuskers, it probably would not really matter, but an interesting question nes pas?

According to Baker, *****d.

As usual, the fearful recoil of the *****, with a half-pound shell and twelve drams of powder, nearly threw me backward; but I saw the mark upon the elephant's shoulder, in an excellent line, although rather high. The only effect of the shot was to send him off at great speed toward the jungle. At the same moment the three aggageers came galloping across the sand like greyhounds in a course, and, judiciously keeping parallel with the jungle, they cut off his retreat, and, turning toward the elephant, confronted him, sword in hand.

http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-project/travel/africa/chapter8.html

And those pretty brass cases and copper slugs? Cartridge Cases are $495.00 per 10 pack shipped. Copper FN Solids are $295.00 per 10 pack shipped.
Note that a modern 2 Bore can be yours for $10k + !
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/02/18/sh-2-bore-blackpowder-express/
http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/features/258443/VIDEO_ST_testfires_a_massive_twobore_rifle.html

I found this on interest : Baker, in one of his several books about his explorations in Africa “The Nile Tributaries of Abyssinia and The Sword Hunters of the Hamran Arabs” also mentions that he some of the projectiles that he carried for this *** that were rather similar to “grenades”. These projectiles contained, in addition, a bursting charge of black powder (with a cap at the front end) that would fire the black powder charge inside the projectile on entering the body of the target animal (usually an elephant).

 

[H.Johnson]

Yes, Baker refers to it as a '*****' - but I'm not sure that necessarily implies a *****d bore. It isn't uncommon to see references to a 'smooth-bore *****' in contemporary (and current) texts. A conflict in terms, but I suppose this differentates it from a (smooth-bore) *******, implying a solid ****** rather than a shot cartridge. More research is needed, perhaps.

I thought immediately of the M-79 'blooper' ***, too.

From the fascinating narrative you provide, it seems his weapon was deficient in velocity.

According to Baker, *****d.

As usual, the fearful recoil of the *****, with a half-pound shell and twelve drams of powder, nearly threw me backward; but I saw the mark upon the elephant's shoulder, in an excellent line, although rather high. The only effect of the shot was to send him off at great speed toward the jungle. At the same moment the three aggageers came galloping across the sand like greyhounds in a course, and, judiciously keeping parallel with the jungle, they cut off his retreat, and, turning toward the elephant, confronted him, sword in hand.

http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-project/travel/africa/chapter8.html

And those pretty brass cases and copper slugs? Cartridge Cases are $495.00 per 10 pack shipped. Copper FN Solids are $295.00 per 10 pack shipped.
Note that a modern 2 Bore can be yours for $10k + !
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/02/18/sh-2-bore-blackpowder-express/
http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/features/258443/VIDEO_ST_testfires_a_massive_twobore_rifle.html

I found this on interest : Baker, in one of his several books about his explorations in Africa “The Nile Tributaries of Abyssinia and The Sword Hunters of the Hamran Arabs” also mentions that he some of the projectiles that he carried for this *** that were rather similar to “grenades”. These projectiles contained, in addition, a bursting charge of black powder (with a cap at the front end) that would fire the black powder charge inside the projectile on entering the body of the target animal (usually an elephant).

 

[Story]

Yes, Baker refers to it as a '*****' - but I'm not sure that necessarily implies a *****d bore.

But not in Baker's case, apparently.

The ***s are the first consideration. After the first year of my experience I had four *****s made to order, which have proved themselves perfect weapons in all respects, and exactly adapted for heavy game. They are double-barrelled, No. 10 bores, and of such power in metal that they weigh fifteen pounds each. I consider them perfection; but should others consider them too heavy, a pound taken from the weight of the barrels would make a perceptible difference. I would in all cases strongly deprecate the two grooved ***** for wild sports, on account of the difficulty in loading quickly. A No. 10 twelve-grooved ***** will carry a conical ball of two ounces and a half, and can be loaded as quickly as a smooth-bore. Some persons prefer the latter to *****s for elephant-shooting, but I cannot myself understand why a decidedly imperfect weapon should be used when the ***** offers such superior advantages. At twenty and even thirty paces a good smooth-bore will carry a ball with nearly the same precision as a *****; but in a country full of various large game there is no certainty, when the ball is rammed down, at what object it is to be aimed. A buffalo or deer may cross the path at a hundred yards, and the smooth-bore is useless; on the other hand, the ***** is always ready for whatever may appear.

My battery consists of one four-ounce ***** (a single barrel) weighing twenty-one pounds*, one long two-ounce ***** (single barrel) weighing sixteen pounds, and four double-barrelled *****s, No. 10 weighing each fifteen pounds. Smooth-bores I count for nothing, although I have frequently used them.

http://lakdiva.org/*****hound/chap01.html

* A 'four once *****' would be a 4 Bore ( 4 slugs to a 16 oz pound). Guess it's a matter of *when* in his career he's writing. Baker also clearly states his use of a ***** with a 'half pound' shell (w/ .5 oz bursting charge and 16 drams powder in the case) : see pages 14 & 15 below. He didn't like that *****, as it was too short.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IT...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA16,M1

 

[H.Johnson]

Yes, that's clear enough. The problem with a muzzle-loading *****d bore weapon is, as Baker points out, the speed of loading (this was often oberved in the early 19thC Peninsular Wars with the coincidentally-named Baker *****).

The 'Green Jackets' found that this problem could be overcome with training and that the advantages in accuracy and range more than offset it. I think we can imply that Baker the hunter felt the same!

Thanks for this.

But not in Baker's case, apparently.

The ***s are the first consideration. After the first year of my experience I had four *****s made to order, which have proved themselves perfect weapons in all respects, and exactly adapted for heavy game. They are double-barrelled, No. 10 bores, and of such power in metal that they weigh fifteen pounds each. I consider them perfection; but should others consider them too heavy, a pound taken from the weight of the barrels would make a perceptible difference. I would in all cases strongly deprecate the two grooved ***** for wild sports, on account of the difficulty in loading quickly. A No. 10 twelve-grooved ***** will carry a conical ball of two ounces and a half, and can be loaded as quickly as a smooth-bore. Some persons prefer the latter to *****s for elephant-shooting, but I cannot myself understand why a decidedly imperfect weapon should be used when the ***** offers such superior advantages. At twenty and even thirty paces a good smooth-bore will carry a ball with nearly the same precision as a *****; but in a country full of various large game there is no certainty, when the ball is rammed down, at what object it is to be aimed. A buffalo or deer may cross the path at a hundred yards, and the smooth-bore is useless; on the other hand, the ***** is always ready for whatever may appear.

My battery consists of one four-ounce ***** (a single barrel) weighing twenty-one pounds*, one long two-ounce ***** (single barrel) weighing sixteen pounds, and four double-barrelled *****s, No. 10 weighing each fifteen pounds. Smooth-bores I count for nothing, although I have frequently used them.

http://lakdiva.org/*****hound/chap01.html

* A 'four once *****' would be a 4 Bore ( 4 slugs to a 16 oz pound).

 

[shortbow]

Yes, asked and answered. Thanks a lot.

For myself, having had many years of shooting with muzzle loaders of all types, for a dangerous game, close range arm, I'd take the smoothy. WAY faster loading.

 

[scotrace]

I think we've devolved off into just ***s.
Again.

I was looking forward to reading this thread to see some of the remarkable gear provided by the likes of A&F, or at least some swell photographs.

 

[shortbow]

That sounds good to me. Wish I could have shopped at A&F back in the day like my Dad and Grandad did.

 

[scotrace]

Just how old is this? I thought 1920's? There has to be good stuff out there.

[/IMG]

 

[shortbow]

Beautiful. Is it a bins case? Also, is that stitching on the top strap merely decorative or is there a practical purpose? As to age, 'twenties looks right to me. Sure hope we see more stuff like this.

 

[H.Johnson]

Scott,

As a pacifist, animal lover and long-term vegetarian I identify strongly with your point, but it is almost impossible to discuss 19th Century exploration (particularly with regard to Africa) without considerable reference to firearms, for sport, 'filling the pot' or attack and defence, much against my nature as it may be to read it.

Indeed, reading HM Stanley's journal (particularly his expedition up the Luabala into the land of the Bangala) almost makes 'Band of Brothers' read like a picnic. The party was harried continuously for weeks and fought for its life for hundreds of miles as they forged up the river. At one point 300 Bangala in war canoes armed with flintlocks engaged with Stanleys force of 44 '*****men' (as he significantly calls them). This is clearly a military incursion under any name. To quote briefly, 'The expedition was outgunned more than seven to one. It would have been a massacre if the Sniders and Winchesters had not been vastly superior to the native flintlocks'.

Under these conditions, it is hardly surprising that some emphasis is placed on ***s in such accounts. But no matter, let us discuss them no more. For myself, I am interested in contemporary journals and good academic biographies. I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a sequence of photographs of 1950s sandwich boxes .

I think we've devolved off into just ***s.
Again.
QUOTE]