Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[Dr H]

Hi Peacoat.

I've not handled two coats in the different cloths, but here is the link to the sale photos in the classifieds, from which you might be able to tell (there is a good image of the nap with a button).

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/for-sale-ralph-lauren-usn-pea-coat-size-l-xl-60.86126/

The coat has a single row of stitching near the edge of the cuff.

I know that it's based on an early pattern, but I'm partial to a mock cuff with an additional line of stitching - would a second line be out of keeping with this pattern?

Thanks

 

[Peacoat]

The pre war coats are so rare that I don't have one, so I don't know about stitching at the cuff. My WWII coat has a single line of stitching at the cuff and another single line of stitching 3" above the cuff. After the war, at least by 1949, the double line of stitching replaced the single line 3" above the cuff. The single line at the cuff remained unchanged.

So there is at least some support that another line of stitching would be historically correct. However, I imagine that RL had an original (or perhaps photographs) to copy when making the pattern.

I can't tell about the fabric from the photos. If the shell is smooth, sorta like velvet then it is the Kersey. If it has a bit of a nap, then it is the Melton. But honestly, who knows what fabric was used in the issue coats in the 20s and 30s? Could have been Kersey, Melton or something completely different.

I could have had a 1932 coat I found on ebay for less than $100, but told the seller that she ought to pull it as it wasn't going to bring anything near what it was worth. It was near the end of the auction with no bids. I told her she needed to keep it for her grandchildren, and if she wanted to sell it in the future to send me an email, and we could work out a fair price. What I should have done was to bid on the coat and then sent her an additional amount to make it a fair sale. I didn't think of that at the time. Never heard from her about wanting to sell the coat. Live and learn. PC.

 

[Spoonbelly]

Hi Peacoat.

I've not handled two coats in the different cloths, but here is the link to the sale photos in the classifieds, from which you might be able to tell (there is a good image of the nap with a button).

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/for-sale-ralph-lauren-usn-pea-coat-size-l-xl-60.86126/

The coat has a single row of stitching near the edge of the cuff.

I know that it's based on an early pattern, but I'm partial to a mock cuff with an additional line of stitching - would a second line be out of keeping with this pattern?

Thanks

Kersey and Melton cloths are both 100% wool. The RL label states 80 wool/20 nylon. I'm assuming that both could not be considered Kersey or Melton.
Peacoat - somewhere on the internet I came across pictures of a 1938 peacoat. I forget where the heck it was. It appeared to be very similar or the same as the WWII coats, and not similar to the WWI era.

 

[Peacoat]

Interesting. If you come across it again, please save the link. I would really like to know when the style changed.

 

[Spoonbelly]

The pre war coats are so rare that I don't have one, so I don't know about stitching at the cuff. My WWII coat has a single line of stitching at the cuff and another single line of stitching 3" above the cuff. After the war, at least by 1949, the double line of stitching replaced the single line 3" above the cuff. The single line at the cuff remained unchanged.

So there is at least some support that another line of stitching would be historically correct. However, I imagine that RL had an original (or perhaps photographs) to copy when making the pattern.

I can't tell about the fabric from the photos. If the shell is smooth, sorta like velvet then it is the Kersey. If it has a bit of a nap, then it is the Melton. But honestly, who knows what fabric was used in the issue coats in the 20s and 30s? Could have been Kersey, Melton or something completely different.

I could have had a 1932 coat I found on ebay for less than $100, but told the seller that she ought to pull it as it wasn't going to bring anything near what it was worth. It was near the end of the auction with no bids. I told her she needed to keep it for her grandchildren, and if she wanted to sell it in the future to send me an email, and we could work out a fair price. What I should have done was to bid on the coat and then sent her an additional amount to make it a fair sale. I didn't think of that at the time. Never heard from her about wanting to sell the coat. Live and learn. PC.

Peacoat,
Was wondering - was that 1932 peacoat the same as a WWII or was it a WWI version?? I'm pretty sure the '38 I saw was just like a WWII. If I remember it also had the throat strap.

 

[Peacoat]

I don't know. I'm not sure I remember seeing a picture of it. Surely she would have posted a picture, but I don't remember the style or even a picture. If it had been the same style as the WWII model, I wouldn't have been interested in it as I already had two of that style. That leads me to believe it was the WWI style. Unfortunately, I just don't remember. I do remember that I wanted that peacoat, but didn't want to cheat the woman by buying her father's peacoat at a deflated price. I just wasn't creative enough on short notice to think of a solution. If she had not pulled the auction, I would have bid on it with a clear conscious.

Now that I have thought about it, that may have been a 1934 peacoat.

 

[Spartcom5]

Update with great news! I got the peacoat washed and everything went great! Feel amazing now, I'm kind of disgusted at how different it feels as I don't think the coat had been washed for at least 30-40 years and I had been trying it on! Also, here are some pictures of how it fits on me... I think it fits me. It's quite snug while buttoned up with two thin shirts on underneath, I think this is fine because it never gets really cold enough here to wear many layers underneath. Also, it seems the shoulders are quite restricting, is this normal? Standing straight like in the pictures is fine but if i move my arms all the way straight or up it gets tight, not tight as in the seams are going to rip. Let me know what you think! I think it fits quite nicely given I randomly found it at a sale not knowing my size for peacoats! Could you post some pictures of 1930s or earlier peacoats? i'm quite interested in acquiring some more now!

 

[Spoonbelly]

Update with great news! I got the peacoat washed and everything went great! Feel amazing now, I'm kind of disgusted at how different it feels as I don't think the coat had been washed for at least 30-40 years and I had been trying it on! Also, here are some pictures of how it fits on me... I think it fits me. It's quite snug while buttoned up with two thin shirts on underneath, I think this is fine because it never gets really cold enough here to wear many layers underneath. Also, it seems the shoulders are quite restricting, is this normal? Standing straight like in the pictures is fine but if i move my arms all the way straight or up it gets tight, not tight as in the seams are going to rip. Let me know what you think! I think it fits quite nicely given I randomly found it at a sale not knowing my size for peacoats! Could you post some pictures of 1930s or earlier peacoats? i'm quite interested in acquiring some more now!

The coat looks very good. I think it just makes it size wise though. IMHO ideally it could be one size larger. Peacoats from the '30s and earlier are Very rare and hard to find.

 

[Peacoat]

I agree with Spoonbelly in that it is a bit small. The sleeve length is just a little short. I like the way it fits in the torso, but the overall length looks to be a bit short. It should end just below your ****. You should be able to lift your arms to about 90 degrees without too much binding, although It may stretch a bit with wear.

And yes, peacoats from the '30s and earlier are rare. To see a picture or two, see my thread bookmarked by Dinerman at the top of this thread.

 

[Spartcom5]

So you think I can still wear it right? It won't ruin it or anything haha? I also plan on losing some weight over the summer which should help with the tightness

 

[Peacoat]

Oh, you can wear it just fine. No problem there. As you wear it and move your shoulders and arms, it will probably stretch a bit to fit your body.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Here's some good quality publicity shots from The Sand Pebbles (click for larger images). McQueen is wearing a newer, civilian pea coat with the 8 of the 10 buttons mounted lower on the coat, whereas Attenborough is wearing what appears to be a military coat with correct spacing (and some extra detailing on the buttons). Or maybe both are wearing civilian coats, just different models. They still look the stuff, though, and it's a great movie for those who haven't seen it yet.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Robert Redford in Thee Days of the Condor (great film if you haven't seen it). He's got a civilian pea coat. This is an old movie, so this civilian version must have been designed in the 1970s or earlier.

 

[Doctor Damage]

(from various sources)

 

[Doctor Damage]

These photos are from a 2014 Boston Globe article on Sterlingwear.

 

[Peacoat]

The first photo on the left, above the Sterlingwear pictures, gives good detail for the WWI era peacoat. They are so rare I have never seen one in person and don't know when the style changed to that of the WWII era peacoat. Someone on the Lounge, Spoonbelly perhaps, suggested it may have been about 1936. Thanks for posting the photos.

 

[Doctor Damage]

The first photo on the left, above the Sterlingwear pictures, gives good detail for the WWI era peacoat. They are so rare I have never seen one in person and don't know when the style changed to that of the WWII era peacoat. Someone on the Lounge, Spoonbelly perhaps, suggested it may have been about 1936. Thanks for posting the photos.

The fourth pic in that row, the one in faded sepia tones, also shows the same WW1 coats of course. I'm surprised that you've never owned a WW1 version, but they must be exceedingly rare like you say.

 

[Spoonbelly]

The first photo on the left, above the Sterlingwear pictures, gives good detail for the WWI era peacoat. They are so rare I have never seen one in person and don't know when the style changed to that of the WWII era peacoat. Someone on the Lounge, Spoonbelly perhaps, suggested it may have been about 1936. Thanks for posting the photos.

Peacoat,
I'm pretty sure it was a 1938. Wish I knew where I saw it. Was one of those sites that you just come across when going through Google, etc. I think I'll enter 1938 US Navy peacoat and see what happens. To tell you the truth I'm not too crazy about the WWI coats. My favorite are the post WWII, and then the WWII coats. Supposed to go into the 90s today and tomorrow as it has for a good part of the summer. Maybe I'll take a cruise (or walk) in one of my coats (LOL).

 

[Slobo]

Peacoat,
I'm pretty sure it was a 1938. Wish I knew where I saw it. Was one of those sites that you just come across when going through Google, etc. I think I'll enter 1938 US Navy peacoat and see what happens. To tell you the truth I'm not too crazy about the WWI coats. My favorite are the post WWII, and then the WWII coats. Supposed to go into the 90s today and tomorrow as it has for a good part of the summer. Maybe I'll take a cruise (or walk) in one of my coats (LOL).

At this link, you'll find the USCG uniform regs from 1930 as amended through mid 1941. On p. 94 of the .pdf, you will note an amendment dated 11/21/1938 replacing the prior specs for the peacoat (as recognized by the USCG) and substituting the specs as we know WW2-era peacoats to be.

https://www.uscg.mil/history/docs/uniforms/USCG1930UniformRegs.pdf

I am assuming the language replaced was the WW1-era peacoat specs. Since the USCG followed the USN uniform regs rather closely, with the exception of cap devices and gold buttons and corps distinctions, presumably the USN adopted these specs sometime around 1938 or before. Still a mystery to me is whether the 11/21/1938 amendment was playing catch up after a more prolonged period of USN specs being in place, or whether they came close in time to each other.

 

[Peacoat]

At this link, you'll find the USCG uniform regs from 1930 as amended through mid 1941. On p. 94 of the .pdf, you will note an amendment dated 11/21/1938 replacing the prior specs for the peacoat (as recognized by the USCG) and substituting the specs as we know WW2-era peacoats to be.

https://www.uscg.mil/history/docs/uniforms/USCG1930UniformRegs.pdf

I am assuming the language replaced was the WW1-era peacoat specs. Since the USCG followed the USN uniform regs rather closely, with the exception of cap devices and gold buttons and corps distinctions, presumably the USN adopted these specs sometime around 1938 or before. Still a mystery to me is whether the 11/21/1938 amendment was playing catch up after a more prolonged period of USN specs being in place, or whether they came close in time to each other.

Unfortunately for me the link only has VIII Chapters going to page 63. I see no way to get to page 94. I have opened the link twice with the same results each time.

I would think the regulations came close in time together and perhaps simultaneously. The two services do communicate and probably collaborated in developing new uniforms as they were basically the same back then, and probably still are.

This appears to me to be a major find which is corroborated by the comments of Spoonbelly above.