The Dam Busters Dog

[Shangas]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-13727908

Political correctness strikes again.

 

[Rathdown]

Reason #3 why I moved to the United States four years ago...

 

[djd]

I think this is fair enough to be honest. I don't see the dogs name as being key to the story and it IS offensive to many people. The term is still used offensively by many people and while it is, it's reasonable to assume that it will cause offence.

 

[dhermann1]

That word can almost have the impact of a ******. Best left alone for a while still.

 

[PADDY]

Gentlemen - The story is not about 'a dog,' it's about the Dambusters.

This has been done to death now. It's 'not' a major thing.

WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT...is the fact that some folk 'out there' want to tell the 617 story to a modern 21st C. audience and show the sacrifice, ingenuity and audacity of those guys (both aircrew, agents on the ground, Recce Crews, Science Boffins..etc - the whole 'team' effort). That's the GOOD NEWS

 

[Rathdown]

Gentlemen - The story is not about 'a dog,' it's about the Dambusters.

This has been done to death now. It's 'not' a major thing.

WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT...is the fact that some folk 'out there' want to tell the 617 story to a modern 21st C. audience and show the sacrifice, ingenuity and audacity of those guys (both aircrew, agents on the ground, Recce Crews, Science Boffins..etc - the whole 'team' effort). That's the GOOD NEWS

I would be most pleasantly surprised if that's the spin put on the story.

 

[Saint-Just]

Reason #3 why I moved to the United States four years ago...

Unfortunately for that part of your argument, it is precisely because they intent to distribute the film in the US that they had to alter the dog's name:

Stephen Fry, who is writing the film's screenplay, said there was "no question in America that you could ever have a dog called the N-word".

But as has been said, the dog is not exactly key to the story

 

[B-24J]

They can't use "Digger" for the dog's name either as the movie will no doubt be shown in Australia and New Zealand.

For those who have read Guy Gibson's, "Enemy Coast Ahead", the uncensored version has some colorful language used by the men that did not make it into the 1955 movie. It will be interesting to see if the words considered offensive in the fifties will be included in the remake.

It would be nice if the digital release were to have two soundtracks which could be switched according to the viewer's preferences.

While I have been bitterly disappointed by modern remakes of classic movies in the past, I too hope that this one will reflect the hard work, courage, and tragedy endured by all associated with the raid on the dams.

John

 

[djd]

Peter Jackson is a real enthusiast and I'm sure his intention is to make the best, most true to life, film that he can. I have confidence in Stephen Fry to deliver a fine script.

 

[Smithy]

I don't see the dogs name as being key to the story

But the problem is that it IS key to the story of Operation Chastise. Gibson picked the word as the transmission code for the successful breach of the Moehne dam. There were a great many people in the Ops Room for the mission waiting expectantly for "that" word to be transmitted.

To be honest I'm disappointed, you hear the word in so much music and movies out of the US and yet somehow everyone is going to fall to pieces and be scarred for life if the word is used a couple of times in a movie about a factual bombing raid.

 

[djd]

The code word could have been anything. What's important surely is who did what, why they did it and when? The word is thoroughly offensive to many good people who have nothing to do with gangsta rap or that culture where it's used as a common slang. If such a word put even some people off from watching a great story about clever and brave men then what would be the point of that? The decision is the only one they could have made IMHO.

 

[Smithy]

The code word could have been anything

But it wasn't. All the support teams, intelligence and ops staff were waiting on tenderhooks to hear that word transmitted, not digger, trigger, etc. Ask someone who was involved with Operation Chastise whether the word was important or not.

The main problem it seems (from commentary over the internet and the news) is that the majority of people objecting to the word being used are Americans and the US market where the word is more prevalent and provokes response, so perhaps they should change the name for the release there where the history and legend of 617 is little known and not held in the same esteem.

 

[djd]

I'm English and white. My grandfather served in 460sq of bomber command during the war. I have total respect for what those guys did. However, I know quite a few ordinary, decent Afro caribean and Asian folks who would be offended and feel excluded by the word. That's enough for me to think the decision taken is the right one.

 

[Smithy]

I'm English and white. My grandfather served in 460sq of bomber command during the war. I have total respect for what those guys did. However, I know quite a few ordinary, decent Afro caribean and Asian folks who would be offended and feel excluded by the word. That's enough for me to think the decision taken is the right one.

But where do you draw the line? If you choose to read a book about the Dam Busters raid it will include that in it. Should the books about the op be changed as well then to protect modern sensibilities? And if not, then why not. If you are prepared to censor a dramatic recreation of the raid and change history then why not a book?

Once you start censoring history at any level it's a slippery slope.

 

[djd]

It's not easy but the rule I'd go by is that while a may read books containing offensive words (in fact the Bulldog Drummond book I'm currently reading uses the N word many times), it's not the same as broadcasting it in a mass media. In mass media certain types of people may view the use of the word as an acceptance of it - neo Germany's WWII-era leadership idiots and the like. The 1940s WAS a more racist time in the UK and the US. Should we revel in that fact? Won't that detract from the story we want told?

 

[Smithy]

It's not easy but the rule I'd go by is that while a may read books containing offensive words (in fact the Bulldog Drummond book I'm currently reading uses the N word many times), it's not the same as broadcasting it in a mass media. In mass media certain types of people may view the use of the word as an acceptance of it - neo Germany's WWII-era leadership idiots and the like. The 1940s WAS a more racist time in the UK and the US. Should we revel in that fact? Won't that detract from the story we want told?

But sticking heads in the sand and creating some artificial, rose-tinted view of history is just as worrying (to me anyway).

And in terms of movies, isn't that the reason they carry age ratings and warnings? For example "MA 15 - Contains offensive language".

Choosing to read a book about a subject and choosing to view a dramatic recreation of a subject is still a choice. And I'd question why a cinematic treatment of an event can't be as truthful warts and all as reading a book on the subject.

Perhaps playing devil's advocate here but I'd say seeing depicted in a film a young 20 year old bomber crewman getting ripped apart by a 40mm flak shell should ultimately in the grand scheme of things be more offensive, sobering and saddening to an audience than the mere utterance of a word.

 

[djd]

You may be right. The danger is though that it becomes in the public eye a movie about the rascist RAF rather than the core story of courage and ingenuity. My grandfather said things I'd consider to be rascist- frequently. Was he a bad person? No he wasn't but he was ignorant when it came to other cultures. We can't judge people by the standards of our own time but the mass media will do exactly that given a chance. That's my take on it anyhow

 

[Smithy]

You may be right. The danger is though that it becomes in the public eye a movie about the rascist RAF rather than the core story of courage and ingenuity. My grandfather said things I'd consider to be rascist- frequently. Was he a bad person? No he wasn't but he was ignorant when it came to other cultures. We can't judge people by the standards of our own time but the mass media will do exactly that given a chance. That's my take on it anyhow

Your grandfather sounds much like my grandparents. They used expressions and turns of phrase which would be unacceptable now. But they were symptomatic of their times. The Romans hurled people to be eaten by lions (quite acceptable to them but abhorent to most today) so should we gloss over that fact? Historical values and attitudes will always be at odds to the generations following - I'd say that's part of the human condition.

But I personally believe we shouldn't try and create an artificial past moulded to our present whatever the medium being used, be it books, film, etc. Tell the past as it happened and we might just learn something from it.

 

[djd]

As I say though- it will completely distract from the story and audiences will be uncomforatable and unsure as to whether they are supposed to sympathise with the characters. It I were making the movie I wouldn't want to risk that

 

[Smithy]

As I say though- it will completely distract from the story and audiences will be uncomforatable and unsure as to whether they are supposed to sympathise with the characters. It I were making the movie I wouldn't want to risk that

I actually doubt whether it would detract to the degree that people seem to think. It would probably only be mentioned several times in the film.

At the end of the day if people are so impressionable that it colours their whole view of the film and affects them to such an extent that they form outlandish ideas about the RAF and the time then I'd say they were probably short of a bit of the grey stuff to begin with. There's always going to be idiots but do we really have to dumb everything down for them?

And once again, that's why film ratings and warnings were invented.

As a boss I had used to say "you can't spell everything out to a ***** but you can try and push them in the right direction"